Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Socialize
 

Recent Topics
   All Posts (muzosa)


« 1 2 3 (4) 5 6 7 ... 21 »


Re: "My teacher said..."
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/4/14 13:45
From New York, NY
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 212
Offline
Quote:

Hissatsu wrote:
Just curious - for the sake of argument: if you told one of your students that - wouldn't you expect one of your guys to ask you why you don't say it yourself instead of sending someone else out there with your message?


I can think of two reasons to use a messenger.

1. There are a couple of classes at our dojo that are taught by other teachers, not by me, so there are students that I don't regularly see. For things that affect the dojo, I pass on the information to others to pass on to students who may not have heard me personally.

2. If the issue has its own complex history, a dojo-wide proclamation may not be necessary -- just those people who have knowledge of the problem need to be addressed, rather than all the newbies who have no idea what's being discussed and would naturally be curious about things that are better resolved and closed off. This type of informal information-trickle allows information to be passed on more discreetly and directly, rather than loudly and indiscriminately.

In both cases, my point of view would be well known to others besides the messenger.

Quote:

hissatsu wrote:

I suspect if there wasn't a retraction - it would have been that way. Everyone seemed to be waiting for independent verification of said events.


The retraction did seem to fog things up in its way, eh?

I have my own speculation about what happened, but that's not relevant.

Quote:

hissatsu wrote:

If you told your student to tell everyone else something on your behalf - why, if he did as requested - would you send him out alone again to take it back? Or even more bizarre - why would you tell another student to tell the first messenger to take it back when it first came from you originally (you had a good enough relationship initially to ask him to speak on your behalf - but now you are going through someone else to talk to him)?


Good questions. Not sure if the problem was the message, the messenger, or the methodology here.

Posted on: 2008/5/8 3:17
_________________
Jeff Christian
Muzosa Bujinkan Dojo of NYC
www.muzosa.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: "My teacher said..."
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/4/14 13:45
From New York, NY
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 212
Offline
Quote:

JeffMueller wrote:
Since Mike's clarification was a little hasty and hard to follow I am not sure Jeff... but to me the situation sounded a little less like the example of you gave telling someone "By the way, John Doe is longer my student, so let everyone know I'm not responsible for him.." but rather someone else in your dojo going up to someone and saying "Jeff Christian said John Doe is longer his student, so let everyone know he's not responsible for him." and then that person going around to all your other students saying "Jeff told me John Doe is no longer his student."

There is a huge difference.

You're right, Mike's clarification left the chain a bit confusing. Between the two scenarios you listed, there's another between the two: Soke telling Mike something, and one of the other senior Japanese shihan telling Mike, "Tell everyone that."

The cryptic part in Mike's message, of course, is exactly who he's referring to when he says "my teacher," since this is the individual who told him to tell everyone.

If I'm having a conversation with student John and my senior student Tom tells John to tell everyone else what I said, then clarification goes up the chain, from John to Tom to me. And if I didn't intend for John to tell everyone what I said, then that's an issue between me and senior student Tom.

In the current situation, Mike made it clear that Soke was the one who told him these things. Mike didn't make clear who told him to tell everyone. If this person was Soke, the chain of the message doesn't matter in this case anyway. But this situation has given me food for thought about messages, messengers, and the intentions of both.

Posted on: 2008/5/7 15:20
_________________
Jeff Christian
Muzosa Bujinkan Dojo of NYC
www.muzosa.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: "My teacher said..."
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/4/14 13:45
From New York, NY
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 212
Offline
If I say to a student, "By the way, John Doe is longer my student, so let everyone know I'm not responsible for him," I would expect that student to follow my directions and tell people. Rather than trying to sabotage someone, I see this simply as a means of spreading information so that other students clearly understand the situation.

I would find it very odd (to say the least) if this student were to say to me, "Do your own dirty work of letting everyone know what's going on in your dojo." How is letting people know that John Doe is no longer my responsibility equivalent to a lack of morals, sincerity, or values?

Mike said his message came from Soke. He also said that he was told by "one of his teachers" to tell everyone.

The current brouhaha doesn't affect me or my training, since I've never met the individual in question. But if one of the senior Japanese shihan told me to "tell everyone" something, I would most likely do it. Clearly that's a personal choice, but I was surprised at how many people blamed Mike, rather than the person who told him to tell everyone.

Bujincan, do you feel like the request made of Mike was "intended to damage another person," and that whoever made that request was "someone who is not a real, genuine and sincere embodiment of what [you] want to become"? What would your response have been to this request?

I'm not trying to start a fight, but I'm curious about the limits that people place upon their teacher's requests. I'm not sure if people were responding to those limits per se, or were simply thrown off by the entire situation.

Posted on: 2008/5/7 14:25
_________________
Jeff Christian
Muzosa Bujinkan Dojo of NYC
www.muzosa.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


"My teacher said..."
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/4/14 13:45
From New York, NY
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 212
Offline
Given the recent firestorm, the part that I found most curious was the general condemnation that so many people threw at Mike Pierce over all this.

If I told one of my students, "Tell the others that I said...," then I would expect that student to tell my other students what I said. I have a hard time imagining any other teacher on this forum feeling differently.

If one of my other students had a problem with that message, I would expect them to talk to me about it, not blast the messenger.

While I think Shawn's new policy is a prudent one, it was disturbing to me how people immediately jumped on Mike Pierce as the culprit regarding the recent issue. Is the problem the message or the messenger?

If you're one of the people who felt like Mike was wrong, how would you have disseminated the information as per your teacher's request?

Posted on: 2008/5/7 8:52
_________________
Jeff Christian
Muzosa Bujinkan Dojo of NYC
www.muzosa.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: The 4 True Shihan
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/4/14 13:45
From New York, NY
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 212
Offline
Great link, Liz. Thanks!

Posted on: 2008/3/18 9:42
_________________
Jeff Christian
Muzosa Bujinkan Dojo of NYC
www.muzosa.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Any nyc dojos spar
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/4/14 13:45
From New York, NY
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 212
Offline
Quote:

skeptismo wrote:
Had the student been slowly progressing to greater and greater levels of resistence or did you suddenly shift from compliant drills?

Sudden exposure to open randori without previous experience is often more to blame for such incidents then the devestating quality of the methods or the skill of the executer of the technique.


This particular student had plenty of resistant sparring experience from tae kwon do and high school wrestling. The issue wasn't his ability to do ukemi (he had been training with me for years at this point), his lack of experience with fighting (he had plenty of that), or a misunderstanding about what we were doing that day (we mutually agreed on the exercise).

He resisted a technique that he couldn't stop, rather than taking ukemi. Between his ego (resisting) and mine (overcoming his resistance), it's not a surprise that he got hurt. Him getting hurt wasn't about any bad-assedness on my part. I've become more cautious about trying to protect my uke since then. I imagine other teachers with similar experiences may have had the same reaction.

Posted on: 2008/1/26 5:29
_________________
Jeff Christian
Muzosa Bujinkan Dojo of NYC
www.muzosa.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Reconciling Old Training and New Training
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/4/14 13:45
From New York, NY
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 212
Offline
Quote:

Boggs wrote:

Honestly man look at what your saying. To get the real training you have to fly around the world several times a year and kiss one guys but until he gives it to you? That hardly seems like an efficient system of learning...

<snip>

If you pay someone to learn a skill, how are they not obligated to teach you that skill?

<snip>

In the states if you want to learn boxing you can go to any good boxing gym and have a world class boxing coach train you, the same applies with fencing, wrestling, judo, BJJ, kickboxing, and tons of other arts. You find a teacher whose skills you respect, you pay them and they teach you. What is so special about the Bujinkan that you feel they can string people along for years not teaching them the skills they need to progress properly?


If you've ever read accounts of business negotiations between Americans and Japanese, there's a similar level of frustration and irritation that consistently crops up between the two parties. It's generally recognized now that Americans who want to do business with the Japanese are advised to have a "cultural advisor" of sorts who can help them navigate the differences between how the two cultures approach things.

One difference is that in America, we assume that if I pay you money, you're obligated to perform the required service to the best of your ability. In Japan, the "best of your ability" is definitely affected by your relationship with the person you're dealing with. In Japan, money by itself doesn't define obligations the way it does in America.

Knowing that fact, then it becomes clear that yes, it is required that you go to Japan and "kiss one guy's butt" until he teaches you. Because they're Japanese, living in Japan, teaching a Japanese art, it's simply how things are done. Getting frustrated and wishing the organization or its top people were more American in their sensibilities is an exercise in futility, I think.

We can't change the Japanese or Japanese culture. Probably the only thing we can change is our own dojo, which I suspect is enough anyway.

Posted on: 2008/1/25 23:17
_________________
Jeff Christian
Muzosa Bujinkan Dojo of NYC
www.muzosa.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Reconciling Old Training and New Training
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/4/14 13:45
From New York, NY
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 212
Offline
Quote:

JeffMueller wrote:

Problem with what you posted is that you are missing the key part of the equation which is the fact that the Japanese are teaching it to their students, but 99.9999% of the Bujinkan doesn't take the time to develop an actual student/teacher relationship with them in order to get such teaching.


Jeff has summed up the issue exactly. This isn't just a Bujinkan thing, but also a Japanese thing. Since everything in Japan is defined by relationships between people, it makes sense for that same sensibility to exist in the Bujinkan. A personal reference when being introduced to people you don't know, for example, is a classic example.

I spent years going to Japan and faithfully attending Hombu classes. About 4 years ago I started to develop a personal relationship with one of the shihan (via one of his students), and now I'm being shown things in a detail that I wasn't before. But it took effort on my part. I'm not that shihan's "personal student" (I don't have that kind of relationship), but a student he has taken an interest in, which is a huge step from where I was.

While this may seem arbitrary, it's not. I'm much more likely to give in-depth help and answers to someone who shows up in my class 3 times a week, and much less likely to go out of my way for someone who shows up once every 3 months. Oh, I'll be polite, but that occasional student isn't someone I know, trust, or am willing to invest time in.

How is that occasional student supposed to get "extra" info from me? By either working to develop a personal relationship with me, or by training regularly with one of my long-time students that I know and trust.

Some people might call this method of teaching irresponsible, but the Japanese would call it reasonable. Makes sense, in a culture where relationships trump most things.

Posted on: 2008/1/25 21:06
_________________
Jeff Christian
Muzosa Bujinkan Dojo of NYC
www.muzosa.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Any nyc dojos spar
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/4/14 13:45
From New York, NY
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 212
Offline
Hope you find what you're looking for. Take into consideration that there may be limits to what instructors may teach you until they get to know you better.

Good luck!

Posted on: 2008/1/25 20:48
_________________
Jeff Christian
Muzosa Bujinkan Dojo of NYC
www.muzosa.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Seems we have some fans over at Bullshido
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/4/14 13:45
From New York, NY
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 212
Offline
A checklist of potential breakdowns in training (in no particular order):

1. I could be wrong.
2. My instructor could be wrong.
3. The art could be wrong.

It seems to me that if we're honest with ourselves and constantly checking those three things, we expose weaknesses and misunderstandings in our practice that will improve our training.

Quite often, students misunderstand what their teachers are teaching. These misunderstandings can happen for many legitimate reasons. Or the student may have gaps in their understanding and fill in those gaps with their own assumptions and experiences, rather than getting guidance. While this thinking is normal, it can also lead to errors and misunderstandings. And the fact that instructors naturally focus their teachings on where they're at in their own training makes it easy to see how students can get lopsided impressions.

There are times when our instructors may be wrong, for the same reasons students are wrong: they misunderstood what they learned, or filled in the blanks with erroneous assumptions. Or the instructor may focus their studies in some areas and completely neglect other areas, which leaves students incapable of obtaining a balanced education.

Finally, the art may not address certain issues and problems in a way that reflects reality. In such cases, instructors and students alike will be left with error and/or omissions in their training.

I think criticism from other people in other arts is great, because it keeps you honest. Fact is, the other guy could be right, and because I'm inside the box, I can't see it. So poking my head around and honestly assessing the situation can lead to important problems and issues, as well as (hopefully) the corrections.

That my take on the situation. I figure, just because someone's a jackass doesn't automatically mean that they're wrong. Find the Immovable Heart, apply some honest examination, and figure out the answer for yourself.

Posted on: 2008/1/25 6:21
_________________
Jeff Christian
Muzosa Bujinkan Dojo of NYC
www.muzosa.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer



 Top
« 1 2 3 (4) 5 6 7 ... 21 »




Today's Sponsor