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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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Quote:


In my opinion, I don't think only two schools remain in those days, so that I do not feel it is an amazing coincidence.

"...the truth but not the whole truth..." Byron


I won't put any information about this article on the internet anymore.




That is not quite what I mean. I realize that more ninja oriented ryu existed in that time period. However, it still is rather unique to have one person inherit the last of those ninja oriented ryu. With all of these other ninjutsu/ninpo ryu out there, one would think more should still be around somewhere. Now, it seems, it all came down to one person.

James

Posted on: 2006/1/10 1:20
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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Quote:

kouryuu wrote:
Adam & James,

It would be great if you could provide literary references for the material that you quoted about Takamatsu Sensei... "Essence of Ninjutsu" perhaps?

Shawn





I just wanted to state that I, for one, am not quoting any information other than what has been previously stated on this thread about Takamatsu Sensei. Also, I am not making any claims to know any information on this issue other than what may be being stated here. I am just trying to understand what is being said here.

Yes, I have read "Essence of Ninjutsu" and that is what came to mind when I read about the match factory in Adam's post.

Please understand...I am NOT making any claims. This was in reference Adam's statements, not mine.

Thanks,

James

Posted on: 2006/1/6 9:35
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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"not sure if he has one for togakure ryu but he did know some form(s). Takamatsu-sensei learned it at 13, 4 years before he met Ishitani-sensei.
When O'Sensei Takamatsu was 17 years old, an old man by the name of Ishitani Matsutaro Takekage came to the match factory owned by Takamatsu's father. Ishitani was famous all over Japan for his martial arts. He was using an old oak bokken for a walking stick. Takamatsu's father gave Ishitani a job as security guard, and Ishitani was also given a small area of the factory to use as a Dojo. Takamatsu leapt at the chance to study under the old man. From him he learned the "Kuki Happo Biken no Jutsu". Ishitani also trained in various aspects of Ninjutsu and taught young Takamatsu aspects from several other schools of which he was also Soke."


So let me see if I understand correctly:

Takamatsu learned Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu early in life from one of the last remaining people (Toda), who had this knowledge of ninjutsu. Takamatsu then later met a man (Ishitani), who was totally unrelated to Toda, but also knew some form of ninjutsu, separate from what Takamatsu already knew. Correct, or no?

If this is the case, then it is an amazing coincidence that one person could happen to meet the only 2 sources of ninjutsu left, and learn from them both. What are the odds? Can anybody clarify this?



James Hawk

Posted on: 2006/1/6 7:06
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Re: BBT vs. MMA
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James HawkQuote:

Shane wrote:
Has anyone here ever sparred or fought a good MMA fighter?
I ask this because I was with the Bujinkan back in the
80's at a very good school, and I can honestly say that
I do not believe that any of the BB's there would fare
well at all against even a mediocre grade MMA fighter.
Now I don't mean to cause problems or be disrespectful,
but I am curious.I greatly enjoyed my training with the
Bujinkan back then.From 1990 on I have done nothing but
Muay Thai,BBJ,Sambo,Wrestling, and a little Kali/Silat.
Has the training improved that much?I use to be dissapointed
that we hardly ever did any training where are partners
would give us much resistance.That is one reason I liked
MMA and grappling tournies is because if I pulled stuff
off I knew it worked because the other guy was trying to
take my head off.Now,the downside to all of this is that
I am riddled with injuries . I have been
considering trying the Bujinkan again and I can see that
alot has changed since I was involved.Any advice on what
I can expect as to training now vs. the mid to late 80's
would be welcome.Other than the name change and a few of
the "big names of Ninjutsu" or no longer affiliated what
else will be new ( ranking,training methods and emphasis, etc....?

Thanks, Shane


Technically, couldn't the Bujinkan be considered "Mixed Martial Arts"?

Posted on: 2005/4/19 4:25
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Jon wrote:
each school has their subtle or not so subtle differences... they all work with the same movements though... whether one is linear and one is circular, one is pressure points, etc. I'm pretty sure its been said b4... but from my knowledge it should be treated as one system! Bujinkan. If it were anyother way than I think we'd have 9 different systems instead of 9 different schools. Hatsumi also has other martial arts under his belt... whether he chooses to include them fully or just partially I think it is significant that the 9 are listed as Bujinkan.


It seems though, that at some point, some people can obtain Menkyo Kaiden in SPECIFIC schools.

Posted on: 2005/4/16 12:09
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Re: Let it go
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I am not talking about you specifically Muzosa. These posts get so verbose at times. Relax, man...

Posted on: 2005/3/9 4:58
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Re: Let it go
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I've heard Soke refer to the Bujinkan as a big family, where everybody needs to learn how to get along, whether they want to or not. I firmly believe this is true.

I also believe that it's inappropriate to pubically air family grievances to just anybody who will listen. Posting grievances on the internet definitely qualifies for this sort of activity.

Whatever people's problems or issues may be with Steve, there should also be respect given to the idea that the family business should stay within the family. I might recount my personal experiences to people I know and trust, but certainly I wouldn't do it to people I've never met.

I can understand and sympathize with people's desires to know these background stories. All I can suggest is that you train with someone who you feel like has this knowledge, and see whether they can get to a point of trusting you enough to tell you such things. This approach sounds an awful like any quest for knowledge that isn't easily obtained. If you want it bad enough, it takes work.


And this is why there are so many opinions, yet lack of reasons given for those opinions; just a "trust me". This is why people come along and don't know what to believe.

Ben Cole and R. Severe have both laid out some of their reasons and evidence for their beleifs.

You don't necesserily have to recount personnal stories about your experiences on the net or to people you don't know or whatever, but you can't expect those people to beleive you with no evidence provided either.

Posted on: 2005/3/9 3:37
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Re: Let it go
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I, the original poster, am still here. I too have been watching. Getting to the truth is not always pretty, but I think it is worthwhile. I titled it with "ooh controversy" as to try to get it in the open that I realize how often SKH has been the focus of debate in the past, and I was not trying to make it into another mud-slinging fiasco. (backfired.)

But then the mud starts flying. Maybe thats OK. Maybe people should see other experiences and hear other opinions on SKH than what is commonly presented, positive or not.

Here is the thing. A lot of these past experiences people say they have had with SKH are not particularly addressed on these Ninpo type forums. They are often vaguely mentioned and we have to take their word for it. Some have gone into some detail and evidence. (like some on this thread have). In the past, the threads like this are usually closed to quickly it seems. Anybody with a story or experience that might shed some light on peoples perception of SKH might bring others, possibly like me, who have read books and informaly practiced with some Ninpo guys for a few years closer to the truth.

James






Posted on: 2005/3/9 1:21
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Re: SKH article (ooh...controversy!)
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Bruin or anybody else that had a word exchange with me:

Again I have no problem with you, but how can you say that I am in the dark about Budo?

Do you know me or my life story? What is Budo? Warrior Way/path? I have had to hold my own against many who's training was ghetto and prison fights. That is just how it was with my environmet. I got out of that
neighborhood/environment in one piece. Being shot at and being in knife fights, I thought I had to have some direction to learn some combat skills. So I started training in various martial arts. I picked up black belt ranks. They were good, but ninpo/ninjutsu interested me since my cousin showed me a SKH book.

I may not speak english as well as you do, maybe that is from my environment as well. But I am trying.

So I think you don't know me if you say you will leave me where i am in the dark. Not meant to be an insult, but what makes you anymore in the light than me?

-James

Posted on: 2005/3/4 0:47
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Re: SKH article (ooh...controversy!)
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Bruin wrote:
Hello James,
Your question does merit a polite reply of course, but the subject matter for some is sensitive, why I dont know, Mr SKH has been training for more years than many and is perfectly entitled to his own opinion and system, on one point though, he does say that he teaches a modern application of the art, and fair dues to him having the strength and determination to sse it thru and teach it as he sees fit, in it's own right, he doesnt call it ninjitsu it has a different name with a different purpose.
It takes great strength to move away from your mentor and pursue your own convictions, only time can tell how right or successful you may have been. For those of you out there that have not met or even know Mr Hayes, I suggest keeping quiet about things you know nothing about, stick to training and when you have at least 20 years in, then feel free to spout a qualified rather than a unqualified opinion,after 20 yrs you've earned the right(doesn't mean your going to), having said that I find myself having to come to the defense of others, and quite rightly so, that is what being a "gentleman at arms" is all about.
Mr Hayes was the first to honestly go and create his own system and I have to respect him for that, in a way we all teach in our own unique way Mr Hayes simply codified into a system that embodies his style and way of thought.
My prediction for the future, is that there will be many more like him in years to come, so save the hipprocracy till then.

Regards
Mark Guest
www.bbdojo.com
New York



1. I AM A "NON BUJINKANNER" hence the forum catagory.
Therefore, there is no hippocracy to what I am stating. (if you meant me).

2. You suggest that anybody that does not know someone who is a public figure and displaying info about their experiences on their website can not be discussed unless you train for 20 years until you might "earn the right"? Are you serious? Did you make up that rule? I don't want to train for 20 years in order to discuss these things. Is this a rule on here or somthing?



3. People often use martial arts "time" and "rank" to make up for their lack of "rank" (money, respect, self esteem, ect.) in society. When they are in the martial arts world they can feel respected and somehow better than others. When they are in regular society outside of the dojo or whatever, they are no better than anyone else. nobody cares what style or rank or how much time you spent knowing who. Wake up and come into the real world, where most of the combat is making money and gaining good relationships outside the internet or dojo. I'm not saying this is your case, I don't know you. This is not a stab at you guys.

I don't have a problem with either of you. However, you do not outrank me if I am not in your organization. I am just a man trying to survive like I'm sure you are. I wish you happieness. I gotta go make some money...


Posted on: 2005/3/3 5:45
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