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Re: SKH article (ooh...controversy!)
村長 :: Sonchou
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Quote:

bencole wrote:

It's really sad that you think that people like Andrew Young, Anthony Netzler, Mark O'Brien, Mark Lithgow, Mike Loonam, Shawn Gray, Don Roley (just to name a few) went over there to "forge little empires." That's pretty belittling of others' achievements, especially given the extent to which Mr. Hayes' empire stretches today.


That's interesting. You once described the way I administer Kutaki as "Smacks of empire-building to me." (Post regarding Karma, 2003-10-22) Was your post not belittling while his was?

Ben, I admire the ferocity with which you defend that which you think is right. You and I have butted heads on here more than enough times when our views have conflicted. The reason I have not entered the Hayes debate here is because I know how I have heard Hatsumi Sensei talk about Hayes both to the whole Honbu class as well as in personal conversations (and no, it was not at all in favorable terms - for those who might like to twist it that way). That's enough for me, and I don't really care about impressing others with my own views on it.

I guess what I'm wondering is... why do you care so much? In all the posts you've made here and in the times I have seen you rake people over the coals in the defence of the Bujinkan, I have never once heard anything at all about your own training since you moved back to the U.S. from Japan. When these debates get going, that arouses my curiosity far more than the topic you are discussing, because I personally respect the opinions of people who I know are really training, as it gives a certain background and weight to their opinions.

Since we have talked a bit about those who have lived in Japan, and those who have moved back, and those who have moved back and published books, and the training methods etc. of said people, can I ask you about your own? What has your training been like since you moved home? Where, how often, and with whom do you train? What are the biggest differences you find in training?

Curious,

Shawn

Posted on: 2005/3/9 0:50
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Re: Let it go
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I, the original poster, am still here. I too have been watching. Getting to the truth is not always pretty, but I think it is worthwhile. I titled it with "ooh controversy" as to try to get it in the open that I realize how often SKH has been the focus of debate in the past, and I was not trying to make it into another mud-slinging fiasco. (backfired.)

But then the mud starts flying. Maybe thats OK. Maybe people should see other experiences and hear other opinions on SKH than what is commonly presented, positive or not.

Here is the thing. A lot of these past experiences people say they have had with SKH are not particularly addressed on these Ninpo type forums. They are often vaguely mentioned and we have to take their word for it. Some have gone into some detail and evidence. (like some on this thread have). In the past, the threads like this are usually closed to quickly it seems. Anybody with a story or experience that might shed some light on peoples perception of SKH might bring others, possibly like me, who have read books and informaly practiced with some Ninpo guys for a few years closer to the truth.

James






Posted on: 2005/3/9 1:21
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Re: SKH article (ooh...controversy!)
Kutaki Postmaster
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Quote:

kouryuu wrote:
I have never once heard anything at all about your own training since you moved back to the U.S. from Japan.
(snip) Since we have talked a bit about those who have lived in Japan, and those who have moved back, and those who have moved back and published books, and the training methods etc. of said people, can I ask you about your own? What has your training been like since you moved home? Where, how often, and with whom do you train? What are the biggest differences you find in training?


Quote:
Please keep this thread on topic.

The original post was specifically about a certain article, linked in the first post of the thread, and even more specifically about a specific paragraph in that article.

This thread would probably be a lot more informative if people weren't all trying to make it seem like they know more than each other about such a wide variety of things that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

THANKS!!

Shawn


Well, I certainly hope that you've docked yourself karma for taking the thread off subject. You always seem to jump on others when they do so....

As I stated the LAST time you tried to hijack a thread (and one in which you did not dock yourself karma either), you are more than welcome to start a thread asking me about my training. Granted, I doubt the general Kutaki member would be interested in the particulars of Ben Cole's training....

Thanks for once again consistently applying the rules to yourself. And to think you actually get upset when I point out these inconsistencies in policy.... Oh, yeah, that's right, this is a dictatorship. Thanks for reminding me.

Cheers!

-ben

Posted on: 2005/3/9 1:34
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Re: SKH article (ooh...controversy!)
村長 :: Sonchou
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Just needed someone to point that out to me Ben, is all. I've docked myself 2 points.

Quote:

Granted, I doubt the general Kutaki member would be interested in the particulars of Ben Cole's training....



Oh... yes... these are not... the droids I'm looking for...

Nice one,

Shawn

Posted on: 2005/3/9 2:05
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Re: SKH article (ooh...controversy!)
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***The following post is purely my opinion. I have no direct knowledge of any of the persons named in this thread***

Something that struck me in this thread, and *stuck with me* throughout the last couple of days, was the insinuation that Soke Hatsumi stopped teaching “real ninjutsu” back in the 70’s.

First, the concept of “real ninjutsu” in itself, I believe, is nothing more than marketing deception since the “real ninja” most likely depended on hand-to-hand fighting skills about as much as our modern Special Forces.

What *bugs* me is the accusation that Soke has just been messing with us throughout these last few decades, intentionally deceiving his thousands of world-wide students and withholding the most effective and important teachings in favor of watered-down “martial arts”.

There is a general tendency in religion to believe that the deeper, more mystical teachings have already come and gone long ago. Those professing to be “seekers of way” search their whole lives for “lost teachings”, out-of-print books, and in general assume that that which is right under their nose is somehow of less value. This is much like the geek who is constantly falling in love with beautiful women he can never have instead of the women who could actually return his affection (or men I should add).

Anyway, Soke has invested his entire life traveling abroad, teaching year after year, Daikyomyosai after Daikyomyosai. To think that he’s just been jerking us off is pretty insulting to him. He’s got his own life to live and his own teachings to explore, which is what I believe he has been doing. Soke’s art has evolved along with the man himself. What Soke is teaching now, I believe, simply didn’t exist in the 70’s, or 80’s.

Anyone claiming that they alone got something from Soke that no one can get again can be nothing more than a con-man, attempting to rearrange reality in order to sell more product. This is something that happens routinely in the world of advertising, but in the world of Budo there in this annoying expectation of moral and principled behavior which tends to kinda throw a monkey wrench into the long-term business plans of many martial arts merchants.



Posted on: 2005/3/9 2:17
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Re: Let it go
Kutaki Postmaster
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Quote:
Leonardo wrote:
A lot of these past experiences people say they have had with SKH are not particularly addressed on these Ninpo type forums. They are often vaguely mentioned and we have to take their word for it. Some have gone into some detail and evidence... Anybody with a story or experience that might shed some light on peoples perception of SKH might bring others, possibly like me, who have read books and informaly practiced with some Ninpo guys for a few years closer to the truth.


I've heard Soke refer to the Bujinkan as a big family, where everybody needs to learn how to get along, whether they want to or not. I firmly believe this is true.

I also believe that it's inappropriate to pubically air family grievances to just anybody who will listen. Posting grievances on the internet definitely qualifies for this sort of activity.

Whatever people's problems or issues may be with Steve, there should also be respect given to the idea that the family business should stay within the family. I might recount my personal experiences to people I know and trust, but certainly I wouldn't do it to people I've never met.

I can understand and sympathize with people's desires to know these background stories. All I can suggest is that you train with someone who you feel like has this knowledge, and see whether they can get to a point of trusting you enough to tell you such things. This approach sounds an awful like any quest for knowledge that isn't easily obtained. If you want it bad enough, it takes work.

Posted on: 2005/3/9 2:36
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Back on track...
Deleted_
I am asking very politely that everyone keep this civil and on topic.

Toshindo students are defending their instructor, Bujinkan people are defending their instructor and for some reason Charles Daniels wants to get into a discussion of Buddhhism.

All very touchy and volatile subjects.

If you care about your Karma rating I suggest you all stop with the trolling.

Posted on: 2005/3/9 3:09
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Re: Let it go
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Quote:


I've heard Soke refer to the Bujinkan as a big family, where everybody needs to learn how to get along, whether they want to or not. I firmly believe this is true.

I also believe that it's inappropriate to pubically air family grievances to just anybody who will listen. Posting grievances on the internet definitely qualifies for this sort of activity.

Whatever people's problems or issues may be with Steve, there should also be respect given to the idea that the family business should stay within the family. I might recount my personal experiences to people I know and trust, but certainly I wouldn't do it to people I've never met.

I can understand and sympathize with people's desires to know these background stories. All I can suggest is that you train with someone who you feel like has this knowledge, and see whether they can get to a point of trusting you enough to tell you such things. This approach sounds an awful like any quest for knowledge that isn't easily obtained. If you want it bad enough, it takes work.


And this is why there are so many opinions, yet lack of reasons given for those opinions; just a "trust me". This is why people come along and don't know what to believe.

Ben Cole and R. Severe have both laid out some of their reasons and evidence for their beleifs.

You don't necesserily have to recount personnal stories about your experiences on the net or to people you don't know or whatever, but you can't expect those people to beleive you with no evidence provided either.

Posted on: 2005/3/9 3:37
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Re: Let it go
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Quote:

Leonardo wrote:
You don't necesserily have to recount personnal stories about your experiences on the net or to people you don't know or whatever, but you can't expect those people to beleive you with no evidence provided either.


Not to get preachy, but everything we do is training. Including being on this bulletin board, and how we conduct ourselves here.

People who have a need to be believed are more likely to talk about things they shouldn't talk about. This is a simple method for drawing secrets from others -- by expressing disbelief.

I don't have a need or expectation to be believed on this topic, in this forum. Hence my choices to discuss the issue peripherally, rather than directly.

Posted on: 2005/3/9 4:13
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Re: Let it go
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I am not talking about you specifically Muzosa. These posts get so verbose at times. Relax, man...

Posted on: 2005/3/9 4:58
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