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Re: BBT vs. MMA (personal responsibility)
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Garth, if you are happy with what you are doing then that is fine with all of us. You see, no matter what your opinion of your training, its effectiveness will be tested in any real situation. If you chose poorly, it is your life and well-being on the line, no one else's. Opinions and "beliefs" are fine, but they are not fact. That is determined where the cheeze gets binding. To presume that the Bujinkan is not effective in real situations or less so than the "To shin do" is a real big presumption, one not supported by fact. So enjoy your training and live with the results you get, as will we all.
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2005/4/18 13:16
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Re: BBT vs. MMA (personal responsibility)
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Gotta agree with Ed here, it`s whatever floats your boat, if you feel that the art you`re studying does it for you then fine, if it doesn`t then change, I, like Ed find that BBT does it for me but that doesn`t stop us looking at other serious arts, i say serious because of the we`re all aware of the crap that`s out there.

Hi Ed, we got to say hello again briefly at the guest house at the end of March, i trust you got back home safely.

Norman

Posted on: 2005/4/18 15:49
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Re: BBT vs. MMA (personal responsibility)
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Quote:

Garth wrote:

Lets put things into perspective. Hatsumi sensei teaches a more traditional approach to martial arts as do the teachers in To-Shin Do.

...You teach law right. But I bet the law you teach is law we use today, and not feudal period law.

Sure its about how the individual uses the art when he is attacked and there are no guarantees but if we are honest about teaching realistic self defence, well lets prepare our students for that.


*sighs*

Same ol' paper tiger...

Ok. First off - Hayes was taught by Hatsumi (primarily). This means that everyone in the Bujinkan, like Hayes, has the potential to do and be whatever they want -- OR -- you have to believe that Hayes is magical and it is beyond your ability to be as good as he is (even though training is BETTER today then it was when he started...). If you limit yourself -- well -- that is your problem - not ours (or the art we train in).

The "feudal vs modern" is a marketing ploy used by Hayes to separate his school from the Bujinkan. It has NO basis in fact -- and a 3 minute visit to any "koryu" school will show you that.

But... and this is the HUGE But...

But... you aren't interested in finding the truth (or you would know that already). You are a spoon feeder - and need direction to feel as though you are making progress. You need the structure of a rigid organization - someone to "think" for you.

Before you get bent out of shape - tell me the last time your Bujinkan instructor said "No roundhouse kicks - this is a classical style" or "Feudal Japanese Samauri never used the jab - so please - no *real* punches".

I challenge you to find ANYTHING that you do in "To-Shin-Do" that I haven't done in a "Bujinkan" class.

Anyway -- this dead horse has been beaten so many times it is beginning to look forward to it's next beating...

-Daniel Weidman

Posted on: 2005/4/19 3:16
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Re: BBT vs. MMA
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James HawkQuote:

Shane wrote:
Has anyone here ever sparred or fought a good MMA fighter?
I ask this because I was with the Bujinkan back in the
80's at a very good school, and I can honestly say that
I do not believe that any of the BB's there would fare
well at all against even a mediocre grade MMA fighter.
Now I don't mean to cause problems or be disrespectful,
but I am curious.I greatly enjoyed my training with the
Bujinkan back then.From 1990 on I have done nothing but
Muay Thai,BBJ,Sambo,Wrestling, and a little Kali/Silat.
Has the training improved that much?I use to be dissapointed
that we hardly ever did any training where are partners
would give us much resistance.That is one reason I liked
MMA and grappling tournies is because if I pulled stuff
off I knew it worked because the other guy was trying to
take my head off.Now,the downside to all of this is that
I am riddled with injuries . I have been
considering trying the Bujinkan again and I can see that
alot has changed since I was involved.Any advice on what
I can expect as to training now vs. the mid to late 80's
would be welcome.Other than the name change and a few of
the "big names of Ninjutsu" or no longer affiliated what
else will be new ( ranking,training methods and emphasis, etc....?

Thanks, Shane


Technically, couldn't the Bujinkan be considered "Mixed Martial Arts"?

Posted on: 2005/4/19 4:25
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Re: BBT vs. MMA (personal responsibility)
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....

Posted on: 2005/4/20 3:46
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Re: BBT vs. MMA (responsibility to students)
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Garth wrote:

>Its because I don't believe in the magic pill that I chose >TO-SHIN DO as the way to go. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that there is anything wrong with Hatsumi' senseis teachings.

I'm sure he will be happy to have your approval.

>But I just feel that for myself personally in this day and >age this is what I want and need. A feeling echoed by my >students.

Upon what are you basing your feelings and what precisely are those wants?

>Lets put things into perspective. Hatsumi sensei teaches a more traditional approach to martial arts as do the >teachers in To-Shin Do.

Yes and remember: everything that SKH is teaching in TSD was learned during his time in Bujinkan.

>This is not to say that Hatsumi sensei doesn't teach realistic self defence, as i have been on courses where he >has taught realistic gun disarms that we can use today, neither should we think that To-shin Do instructors don't teach classical techniques as they do. when i was over in >the States last, a lot of Takagi Yoshin Ryu was taught.

You have made the point twice that Soke is effective and what he teaches is effective. Have you gone to Japan and personally trained with the man and his shihan, on a regular basis? After all, you are getting are teachings which are derived second-hand from that source, from someone who has not trained in Japan as much as others.

>I guess its all a matter of degree. Here in the UK a lot of what i have experienced in the Bujinkan has been very >traditional in approach.

Tradition is a good thing: if it was not effective, then the person using it would have died and it would be the past, not a tradition.

On another thread, the strong consensus here was that instructors should train with Soke at least once per year, or stop teaching. I think that you have a responsibility to do so, for the sake of your students, before making this decision, in order to ensure that your decision is the most informed one possible. When teaching, you are responsible for the training of your students, not just your own.

>You teach law right. But I bet the law you teach is law we >use today, and not feudal period law.

Same law, different lables. Compare Magna Carta of 1215 with the US Constitution of 1789. Compare Blackstone's Commentaries, or those of Cooke, with the Restatements of Torts, Property and Estates. Compare the Roman Code with the Napoleonic Code. There is no need to reinvent the wheel when you already have one that works.

One other analogy: after each exam, I focus upon refining and improving the material for the next class. That's my responsibility to my law students. If I am not giving them my best, then I should not teach. When I can do this no longer, then I am done with teaching.

>Sure its about how the individual uses the art when he is attacked and there are no guarantees but if we are honest about teaching realistic self defence, well lets prepare >our students for that.

Precisely: however, about 20 years ago, a former Bujinkan student named Robert Bussey ran around, making the same claims that SKH is now echoes: discard the "traditional" in favor of the "practical", etc. Then, Bussey merely had the more attractive package, the machismo, and the promise of the combative magic pill. However, he ended up retiring due to numerous training injuries and one of his students got his a55 kicked on UFC.

Interestingly, SKH was then one of Bussey's biggest detractors and one of Soke's biggest supporters. Now, SKH has adopted the same position as Bussey. When considering a teacher, it pays to examine that teacher's relationship with their teacher. Because respect and real loyalty go both ways. A teacher who lacks respect for his teacher, will ultimately think of himself/herself, not the students.

My point is that before you are making a judgment about what lies on the other side of the mountain, go to the mountain yourself, see with your own eyes and judge for yourself. Three weeks of training in Japan with Soke, along with teachers such as Shraishi-sensei, Nagato-sensei, Someya-sensei and others will surely give you a far more informed perspective on this decision.

You owe your students that much at least.

Paul Wersant

Posted on: 2005/4/20 4:31
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Re: BBT vs. MMA (responsibility to students)
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Excellent response Paul, couldn`t agree with you more.

Posted on: 2005/4/20 4:50
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Marche ou Creve!...

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Re: BBT vs. MMA (responsibility to students)
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I too agree Paul, that was an excellent Post!!! There is always a predictable result to our choices if we are willing to look. One OUGHT to at least consider the results of their choices before locking them in. Like it or not there is no one presently in our world who can compare to our Dr. Hatsumi and his ability to teach the principles.
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2005/4/20 5:14
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Re: BBT vs. MMA (responsibility to students)
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Thanks Ed and Normski..and my karma is up to 0, from -1. Made my day.

Paul Wersant

Posted on: 2005/4/20 5:21
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Re: BBT vs. MMA (responsibility to students)
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Congrats Paul on the Karma point! That was an excellent post!

Posted on: 2005/4/20 5:29
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David Russ
Ocala Bujinkan Dojo
Florida Bujinkan Network
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