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Re: I realy dint expect this...
Kutaki Postmaster
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I am a little confused by the question posed here. What is being asked?

I have been in many fights. More than a few were deadly. It is just reality that some of us were not born into wealthy families and safe neighborhoods. In my case it was upstate NY just outside of Albany. Not a very safe place.

I have also had many "sport fights" that could be, in retrospect, considered even more dangerous than some of my "real" fights.

The comments made about people in the Bujinkan not having any fight experience are true. But it is important to realize that this is not a bad thing. It shows the quality or the level of the people involved in the art. But on the other hand I have met many people in the Bujinkan who have had to use their training on many occasions. It all depends on the individual.

I have often been outspoken about the weak individuals in the Bujinkan who run dojos and turn the Bujinkan into a "rank factory" for Kata collectors. But I also know for a fact that there are many good Bujinkan instructors all over the world that are keeping the feeling of the true Bujinkan alive.

Fighting is not a bad thing. The reason someone is fighting can be though. This is what I consider to be important. In the proper circumstances even the lowest trick in the book can be honorable. The act of violence itself is not evil. Violence can be an act of love. This is what Hatsumi Soke calls "Kamisama no bouryoku".

So when you bring up this question I do not have a problem with trying to discuss it but I am confused as to what is being asked.

The details of most of my serious moments are very vague as I was dealing with things at a very high pace and my attention was in every direction at once. What I do remember is usually gross and is not what I think you are asking for, or at least I hope not.

One thing I can say though is that control of the emotions and the breath in a real fight is vital. I have seen many people lose simply because they were scared and could not move.

Real fights are a serious thing and if it is in the case of righteousness or self defense then I also believe that every individual has the right and duty to be prepared.

This is why I started training and still continue to do so. It is a blessing to go through life without ever having to fight. Looking back at some of my own memories I also long for that type of life. Even when you are protecting yourself or others it is a sad and regrettable thing to hurt or injure another individual intentionally.

I hope I did not come across as arrogant or a "know it all" but I feel that this is an area where I and a few other Bujinkan members I know out there that can make an honest comment".

Sean Askew
Bujinkan Kokusai Renkoumyo
www.onimenkai.org






Posted on: 2005/8/13 11:01
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Sean Askew
Bujinkan Kokusai Renkoumyo
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Re: I realy dint expect this...
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don't waste your breath on this sort of idiot question Sean. We both know that besides the many who have never been in a fight (and as you say that is GOOD for the Bujinkan in terms of class of people), there are also many very experienced people and many of these as professionals. That somebody made such a statement just shows how little they know about the Bujinkan this gerneration and last generation, and how little they know about fighting themselves. Just another troll.

Posted on: 2005/8/13 11:10
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Re: I realy dint expect this...
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"Even Dr. Hatsumi has never had to use his skill outside of training."

Did anyone ever expressly tell you that he has never been in one? And what makes you think that just because he has everyone would know about it?

Posted on: 2005/8/13 12:09
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real experience....
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Is there anything to the legend of either Takamatsu or Hatsumi Sensei saving the life of a high ranking Yakuza member by using Muto Dori?

It makes a great story and it re-inforced by the respect and allowances we are given when we visit Noda and let them know we are training with Soke.

Marty

Posted on: 2005/8/13 12:27
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Re: real experience....
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I am not sure who yaban is referring to in his post. Is he referring to the original post about wanting people to relate their experiences or was he referring to my previous post.

Since my post was neither a question nor idiotic, I'll assume he was referring to the original post. To that I simply have to say to Yaban is this. Notice the difference between your response and SeanAskew's response. He took the time to lightly go over his experiences and reasons for training. He directly referred to areas of my post and answered them in a professional and courteous manner. Your only contribution to this thread is to call the original poster an idiot and me a troll. Your response in this matter would seem to indicate that you have no real world experience to share and perhaps are feeling a little insecure about that fact.

I think it is ridiculous that you refer to someone as a troll just because that person makes an observation about the current training philosophy(at least in some dojos and as stated on various forums).

In my opinion it is a serious issue, if we don't want our art to degrade to utter real world uselessness like other martial arts have.

To SeanAskew:

Thank you for your well thought out post. It was far more helpful to the discussion than simply calling people names.

In all do respect, the original post I wrote did contain a reference to you and a situation I read about involving multiple attackers and a knife wound. That post was lost however due to a computer issue. When writing my second one I left it out and am sorry. I was aware of it though.

You state in your post that an “individual has the right and duty to be prepared” should a real fight be encountered. That this is the reason you started training and continue to do so. This was my point exactly. Too many people see this art as something completely different than what it is-a form of (generally) unarmed combat.

I’m sure you’ve read the same posts I have about real world fighting experience. I’ve seen it said if you have any real world fighting experience then you are a troublemaker and have no business training in the Bujinkan. People shouldn’t go looking for fights but they do happen and that shouldn’t be ignored. Also as you said those with real world experience can make a valuable contribution to other training by helping them be aware how a real confrontation differs from the controlled atmosphere of the dojo.

It is almost as if some people want the history and origin of our art to be forgotten. For it to become an art simply performed like Tai Chi has become. Yes Tai Chi has its origins in an actual fighting style but how many that practice it today think of it as self-defense.

I wasn’t trying to insult anyone by saying that most Bujinkan members have no fighting experience. I was just saying that those with experience should not feel that it is wrong to discuss it with those that don’t have any. Since it started out as such I’ll compare it to modern military training. The quality of training is always better when those in command have real world combat experience. They know what works and what is just useless crap. Those veteran soldiers can then transmit that experience and knowledge to their trainees. This makes for a more prepared well-trained soldier.


Much respect to you SeanAskew for being able to contribute intelligently to an issue I find important.

And I have no respect for you yaban. If all you’re able to do when someone asks a question is call them an idiot and a troll then you deserve no respect regardless of how long you’ve trained or what your rank is. In my opinion you are more of a Troll than I.

Posted on: 2005/8/13 12:52
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Offended or find the issue silly - also why not to reveal details.
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Hmm

Well in most places fighting is illegal and can also result, as silly as it often seems, in civil liability.

Finding a way out of a dangerous situation without fighting is something to be proud of not to be scorned.

While the skills and reflexes we learn can aid us in a fight they save us in many situations. I can think of at least two where intensive training in Ukemi and evasion meant the difference between life and death.

So you were in a fight and beat\injured\maimed\.... even if you did not get hurt physically there can be a psychic consequence. Even the best get PTSD and think back on why the heck did I get myself into that.

This last one goes to:


Quote:

Hundreds of years ago young men were training in these very same skills and were preparing to go to battle. When these young men asked those with combat experience to share their stories, I hardly think they were met with the same attitude of offense and told it was wrong to discuss such things.


Sorry that was "hundreds of years ago" in feudal Japan. A completely different cultural paradigm from the one some of us live in.

Look this is the never ending story. So why not end it. If you want to fight, ring or whatever do so. Your choice. No one can fault anyone’s choice. Train hard and learn to be effective. We do here and I can tell you my teachers drummed that into me, in more ways than one. Every one will follow their path.


But be real. In the end we fight to survive when we should and can and do what we have to. If we fight to fight than we start down a slippery slope. See my other post about the depraved.

Just so you know last fight was several years ago in the service. My buddies pulled me off and I was lucky as the end result would have been time in the stockade.


Posted on: 2005/8/13 12:59
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Re: I realy dint expect this...
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Quote:

lumin wrote:
"Even Dr. Hatsumi has never had to use his skill outside of training."

Did anyone ever expressly tell you that he has never been in one? And what makes you think that just because he has everyone would know about it?


To answer the question about how I know Hatsumi has never used his skills outside a dojo is contained in my original post. Look at it this way if the fairly famous current "ninja grandmaster" was ever in a fight someone would have found out about it by now and reported on it. Like I said Dr. Hatsumi himself may be too modest to talk of such things, but there are always witnesses or at least the other person involved in the altercation.

If that logic doesn't suit you then I'll try a different approach that seems to be popular of these forums when dealing with certain topics: If there is no record of it and nobody's ever heard of a situation in which Dr. Hatsumi has used his abilities then I can only assume he hasn't. If somebody out their know of even one instance let me know, I'd love to hear about it.

Posted on: 2005/8/13 13:06
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Re: I realy dint expect this...
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Luckily, the amount of times I've had to defend myself, as opposed to having been an active, willing participant of a fight (which is illegal by the way - the same is not true for defending yourself), has been relatively few times.

Tobias Goldstein

Posted on: 2005/8/13 13:34
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Re: Offended or find the issue silly - also why not to reveal details.
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Quote:


Sorry that was "hundreds of years ago" in feudal Japan. A completely different cultural paradigm from the one some of us live in.




Perhaps you missed my point. You call it training to survive. I call it training to fight. Call it whatever makes you sleep better at night. Its the same thing.

However; in my opinion the type of training that we engage in goes beyond simple survival. If all you want to do is survive go take a Krav Maga class-I hear you can master it fairly quickly and then you can free up all that time you've been using to train.

I realize that was “hundreds of years ago” but your pretty naïve if you believe we’ve progressed any beyond that point. The only difference is that its no longer an organized military we’re going to be fighting against. At least in past battles it was understood you were at war and you generally knew who your enemy was. Now you never know who is going to start a conflict. It could be anytime for no reason at all. In my opinion things are worse today than back then. We have progressed in one area though, technology has made it easier for those that will cause trouble. No amount of training , no combination of techniques can protect you from one untrained 15 or 16 year old kid with a gun. So show me how we’ve progressed to a new cultural paradigm.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to fight. Not in real world circumstances and not in competition. I’ve got nothing to prove in that way. I do; however, disagree with the training philosophy of “we train in martial arts so we don’t have to fight” I see it as the motto of instructors who know their techniques are useless everywhere except in the dojo. If we truly believe our art to be effective then our training philosophy should be “I won’t go looking for a fight, but I’ll be prepared when one finds me.”

I see you were in the service. Tell me, when you were in basic training did your drill instructors ever tell you that they were teaching you to shoot –but if a gunfight ever broke out in battle just try to avoid it.

Posted on: 2005/8/13 13:39
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Record?
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Hello -

I see some very valid points in this thread. Each has it's own perspective.

If I post on here that I have hurt someone (regardless of the circumstances), the consequences of that in today's social enviroments can perhaps lead to persecution / prosecution for something that I did or didn't do.

This is in addition to my having to live with the truth or the lie of who I am and / or what I have done (or not done).

The internet is indeed a record of what we present here. Should some one catch a glimpse of something objectionable I said here, a few keystrokes and a few seconds, all saved locally. Of course, we all understand that, correct?

As far as Hatsumi soke's history of personal conflicts - that is something he understands and lives with. I do not feel it is important, is none of my affair and I will not question it. Each of us makes our own choices.

As my example in budo, I follow my instructor's as they set the example that I have seen as correct in my life. From my own trial and error, I am merely comparing notes with those I respect. Does this mean I blindly follow those that I learn from? No.

Most of the time it is difficult for me to keep my mouth shut and just watch as I listen to what is presented. I must monitor my own flexibility, it seems my attitude is often more rigid than this carcass I shuffle around in each day.

Perhaps a better forum for swapping certain stories is after training or over a meal. I know it is what I prefer, much more personal.

I hope I find what I seek, I wish the same for each of you.

Posted on: 2005/8/13 14:16
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