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Training with Non-Bujinkan Practitioners
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I recently had the chance to train with a guy here in Hong Kong, where I am currently living, who does Kyokushin ad MMA. We played about with some stuff and then he suggested some randori. It was done nice and soft, but I felt overwhelmed.

I tried using taijutsu to evade his blows. And when it came to getting anywhere close to him to hit him or take him off-balance, I was like a 3 year old fighting Bob Sapp.

Now, I know we are told that we don't, or shouldn't spar, but I am starting to feel like randori is a good idea for us to test out our skills...especially against people who attack with more than one punch at a time.

Advice, ideas, opinions...whatever from anyone please.


Posted on: 2005/9/18 20:08
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Jamie...
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Re: Training with Non-Bujinkan Practitioners
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Any 3 year old can make Bob Sapp run away crying like a baby if they have the right knowledge . Same with your friend from Hong Kong play to his strengths in his game and you will be at a distinct disadvantage.The real skill in this art is being able to controll the timming and distance and space letting them bring about thier own downfall. The skill is being in the right place to take advantage of this.I hope one of these decades to be this skilled but until then I will have to find a 3 year old to train to take Bob on and win in a no rules match up.

Posted on: 2005/9/18 21:10
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Re: Training with Non-Bujinkan Practitioners
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The first thing I'd ask Jamie is how long have you been training and how long has the other person been training in his art. The reason for those questions is it indicates the level of "muscle memory" that is working here. I think everyone here understands that you can not "think and respond" in such a situation, it is WAY too slow. He obviously didn't have to "think" but was responding from his training. If I'm wrong on this evaluation please let me know. Next the "taijutsu" that you were using, was it the forms that are initially taught, ie. the large expanded movements? If so those are ways to learn movement, not ways to really do it. The way it really is done is small, subtle, with very little movement. If an opponent knows or can see what you plan to do before it is done, they can and probably will stop you ---- unless they are without any skill which means they didn't know what you were doing anyway. The movements your friend did will show you his training and where his "muscle memory" is concentrated. You can use that knowlege.
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2005/9/18 22:07
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Re: Training with Non-Bujinkan Practitioners
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Hi Ed..Papa San...I've trained for around 7 years...been in Hong Kong for 2 doing little or no training and little chance to come back to Japan. The Taijutsu I was talking about was not the big kind...not what is initially taught. When I think about what I said initially, I was wrong. He beat, overwhelmed me because he was trained for the ring. Now that I think about it, everything he did at the time had zero intention. Like you said...it was all muscle memory...drills, combinations. If you are thinking what I am thinking, I feel like a real big fool. I have been in situation before where other's intentions were felt and my reactions were saving (Glasgow can be a nice place).

He is a sport fighter. Bujinkan is not a sport. Don't what else to say other than duh!....I should have known better. HIs training is for something different.


Posted on: 2005/9/19 4:27
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Jamie...
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Re: Training with Non-Bujinkan Practitioners
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As I said before, I am at a loss here in HK. Training on my own does present some problems. Finding people to train with is ot easy. I do what I can, but have trouble refining any previous training.

Jamie

Posted on: 2005/9/19 4:32
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Re: Training with Non-Bujinkan Practitioners
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I find it hard to spar with Taijutsu simply because I dont want to hurt the unsuspecting sparring partner. Sometimes me and a friend of mine get out of hand while "play fighting" and we end up leaving with welts and bruises. He is a boxer always throwing combo's and I am fairly new to the Bujinkan. But when he starts throwing combo's I just try to keep my space and damage his punching arms until he tires out a bit. then I try and take the control from him.

Posted on: 2005/9/19 6:04
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Re: Training with Non-Bujinkan Practitioners
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Where I currently train there's recently been a couple of drills done that might be described as "isolation sparring". One of these was built on the following premises - one guy uses whatever punches he feels like (only punches, no kicking in this particular exercise), and retracts his punching arm after every attack. Meanwhile, his partner tries to move in, establish some kind of momentary control, and then apply torite kihon or a couple of variations thereof. To be perfectly honest, I'd say I actually fared quite well last time. The things that made my movements successful were, IMHO, these three things:

a) bend your knees and move the feet a lot, try to keep your weight on your rear foot as much as possible so you can apply an offensive triangle with your ichimonji upon physical contact.

b) a hand moves too fast in order for you to catch it and apply a lock, so establish control of his elbow instead (this also means that it is often safer to seek your opponent's flank rather than to meet him head-on - look at how a bullfighter handles the situation ).

c) the "flinch response" where your elbow comes up like a spear and your hand covers your ear, it's extremely effective, covers you well and is easy to pull off even against a totally spontaneous attack.

Just my two cents.

Tobias Goldstein

Posted on: 2005/9/19 9:17
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"Proximity doesn't necessarily negate skill, but distance favours the marksman."......
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Re: Training with Non-Bujinkan Practitioners
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hi jamie, if you fancy hoping over to oz in a return trip home or what ever, give me a yell and you can train with us.

i'm a ayshire man living in oz btw. so as long as your not a 'jakey' from the gorbals or drumchaple, your welcome,lol(only kidding)

budo is budo, sparring is sparring at the end of the day.

cheers

Posted on: 2005/9/19 23:43
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darren stewart

Oldschoolcarpentry.com.au
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Re: Training with Non-Bujinkan Practitioners
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Not a jakey...buckfast has never passed my lips with any joy or gusto. If and when I can afford a plane trip anywhere, I will be on it. I left Japan just when I was feeling I was starting to get somewhere with my budo training. Now in Hong Kong and wishing I had someone...anyone who will trian with me.

I guess I will be patient till I get the chance to get back to Japan, or somewhere else there are like-minded people to train with me.


Cheers Daz

Posted on: 2005/9/20 1:13
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Jamie...
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Re: Training with Non-Bujinkan Practitioners
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I can absolutely understand your situation.

And - I think it was also mentioned here - we must make difference between sparring and training.

I tried both due to very similar reasons like you had.

Sparring ...
... did not work with people from other styles, as considering my physical parameters ( short weak woman ) I had no chance if I wanted to stop them (or win over them) with strength, and also my skill level is not that good. Therefore I should have used "unusual" methods, like a little "surgery" on the eyes, fingers (oya- and kogoroshi ) Sometimes I did it and of course they were not happy with it, and some of them even got pissed off, saying that it was not fair, and it was dangerous etc.
However I simply did not want them to go blind, to break their fingers, to make them deaf for a life just because I am not skilled enough to apply "everyday" methods during a sparring.
So slowly I kind of understood that for me it is still too early to spar with anyone who's not from our style (our guys are used to these methods )

Training ...
... did not work either because they always wanted to "correct" what I did "wrong". They could not see my art as a completely different system, they always wanted to show me eg. how to kick, or hit, or how to step properly (of course as it was in their style), why that what I was doing has been wrong, and how that really should have been done. It was IMPOSSIBLE to train with them. So I also learnt that training does not work with them, either.

In the same time I know how difficult it is when there is noone to train with... You grab even the last straw ...

Eva

Posted on: 2005/9/20 1:53
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Eva Barbara Bodogan
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