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down to the floor
Kutaki Postmaster
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hello,
please correct me if i´m wrong here !
as far as i saw and trained there are hardly any techniqes covering groundfighting in the bujinkan. what remains is to take the concepts with us down to the floor and try to make them work.
has anyone of you ever done that seriously ? it´s pretty easy just to adopt another system (gracie jj or others), but thats not what i mean. i would like some advice only along the bujinkan lines.

thank you very much
karsten


Posted on: 2003/8/22 5:26
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karsten helmholz

bujinkan shinden dojo buchholz/hh
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Re: down to the floor
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The thing is that much of the focus of the techniques that we do are based on being free to move regardless of how many opponents you may have.

The problem with going to the ground, from a strictly bujinkan perspective, is that your tying all your energy up into one person - and can leave yourself vulnerable to other attackers.

This is why, in true application, many of the bujikan techniques would be finishers, designed to eliminate the threat as quickly and efficiently as possible.

It is very important these days to have a solid skillset for fighting on the ground if you find yourself in that position - but the focus should be on maintaining mobility.

with regards to applying what we learn to ground fighting, since the movements are based on principles and mechanics of the body - you can easily adapt things to work on the ground.

I find that learning jujitsu is a great compliment to the bujinkan.

Posted on: 2003/8/22 6:06
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Re: down to the floor
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Hello. Bujinkan budo taijutsu does have its own repetoire of ground fighting techniques. My teacher has covered them in part and Hatsumi demonstrates some of them on the Quest video "What Is Martial Arts?"

Posted on: 2003/8/22 7:22
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"What is Martial Arts?"
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Posted on: 2003/8/22 11:36
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Re: down to the floor
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I think this is an excellent topic. I do agree with the statement that you want to keep yourself from going to the ground to better protect yourself from multiple attackers. But, let's be realistic. If you are being attacked by multiple attackers, they are more than likely going to circle you and close in on you until one of them tries to shoot in when you aren't looking, or tries to sucker punch you. I don't care if you are Hatsumi Sensei, if you allow yourself to get into this situation, then you are going to have a VERY difficult time getting yourself out without serious injury.

I think that is what is so great about the Bujinkan. It deals with more than just what to do in a certain situation. It deals with how did you get there? What are you doing before the attack happens? That is what I really like about this system. You develop strong budo skills by physical technique as well as sensitivity training.

As for the ground fighting... BJJ is nothing more than an excellent practiced form of judo! I promise you if you study and learn Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu inside and out then you will see that EVERYTHING in BJJ is in Takagi Yoshin Ryu. And then you will see the same techniques working for you on the ground as you do standing up.

Don't be afraid to go to the ground! It is only natural that when we get afraid or scared we tend to want to grab a hold of the person, or to try and get away. That is what is so great about the Bujinkan. Oni Kudaki works the same wether you are standing up or on the ground. It is the same principle. Wether you call it "Oni Kudaki" from Takagi Yoshin Ryu or "kimura" from BJJ, the principles are the same.

Chad Cunningham
www.yoshindojo.com

Posted on: 2003/8/24 19:35
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"Kimura" lock = o-gyaku
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Having not specifically studied Takagi in depth, I can't comment on the technical overlap of Takagi and BJJ. Obviously all of the shimewaza of Takagi are there, as well as the gyaku-waza (except perhaps oyagoroshi & kogoroshi). As to how they are used and why those positions are taken, and how one tends to move from one position to another, I am interested to know whether they are really the same.

As a point of information, actually, the "Kimura" lock is an o-gyaku type lock (moving the arm in a posterior direction).

The "Americana" lock is of the oni kudaki type (anterior direction).

Posted on: 2003/8/26 4:05
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Re: down to the floor
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Quote:

kabutoki wrote:
please correct me if i´m wrong here !
as far as i saw and trained there are hardly any techniqes covering groundfighting in the bujinkan.


It is important to remember that the principles of Taijutsu apply just as much on the ground as they do standing.

I've heard people say that you need to train in BJJ to understand how to train on the ground. That is simply not true at all, though training in BJJ (just as training in boxing, Judo, or Kung Fu) opens one's eyes to the potential attacks you could face from other arts. This itself is enlightening!

What people need to understand is that the spinework, hipwork and kneework (extension or not) that is used to generate power in punching or throw larger opponents while standing is EXACTLY the same as that used on the ground to free the hips, create space to execute techniques or escape, and so on. People need to understand this, and WORK to understand it.

Many times such "basic" things as mechanics and structure are forgotten when teaching/learning. We go through movements, or watch our teachers go through movements, without actually UNDERSTANDING what is happening.

Those who have lived in Japan have seen Soke "shrimp" a la BJJ when on the ground. Did he say, "This is shrimping. Everyone spend ten minutes at the beginning of every practice doing this"? No. We're big boys now, and if we have the eyes, we should be able to pick out the lessons that we need to work on. Is shrimping written in the scrolls? Most probably not, imo. But are the lessons of shrimping enveloped within all the techniques in the scrolls? Yes, imo.

This illustrates the danger of kata collecting, imo. Do you need to have an official waza starting from a pinned position to work the lessons? Of course not. Does the lack of such a technique mean there is no groundwork in the art? Of course not.

Instead of mindlessly shrimping up and down a dojo, however, it is imperative that people understand the structural and physical dynamics that make shrimping the same as punching, which is the same as throwing. Once this point becomes ingrained in you, you are well on your way to understanding the Bujinkan arts, imo.

Only after this point has been digested should you THEN think about how all the Fudoza and Seiza techniques in the scrolls ALSO teach the lessons of the ground.

Eschew kata comparisons.
Examine principles of movement.
Then train them--whether standing, sitting, prone, in water, etc.

-ben

Posted on: 2003/8/29 3:18
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Re: down to the floor
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I totally agree, having that mind-set of using the principles and building blocks and putting it to practice...

Quote:

This illustrates the danger of kata collecting, imo. Do you need to have an official waza starting from a pinned position to work the lessons? Of course not. Does the lack of such a technique mean there is no groundwork in the art? Of course not.


...and if I may add, I've had the opportunity to train at several dojos, and some instructors do have differing attitudes when students end up doing ground-work... even if there was a lack thereof with practice-time, still get to know the ground (the mat, the floor, etc) and get comfortable with moving around, rolling... It may not be the focal point of the practice, but it becomes a bonus. I've seen a lot of guys who are very good upright and end up loosing it on the ground.

-shintaro


Posted on: 2003/9/2 20:40
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Footloose
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Two paesos:

IMHO if you are very good upright you should never have to go to ground: IMHO if you've gone to the ground you've lost. Qualification: unless you're a bouncer with buddies covering your back, or you're in the ring (which doesn't really count anyway).


Posted on: 2003/9/3 11:02
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Re: Footloose
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Well, I posted on E-baka on the same topic, so rather than waste space, here's a link.

Jeff

Posted on: 2003/9/3 23:57
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