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Re: High/Low Probability Techniques
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Quote:

dseago wrote:
The whole approach is a very low-percentage way of thinking about budo.


I liked this statement.

If you go up to someone, grab their hand and try to put on omote gyakku you have an almost zero chance of succeeding. From my experience even people who have been training at a normal pace for a year will only be able to get omote gyakku to work a low percentage of time. A person who has done a lot of work studying this waza from every angle, understands how to set it up and most importantly knows when to attempt it will catch it a high percentage of the time.

Why bother at all? Because if you can get it to work it's an excellent technique that locks the opponent's wrist, elbow, shoulder and spine to deliver them side on at your feet without having to commit your arms any deeper than your wrists.

So I believe a lot of budo is about transforming low percentage to high percentage. This is why we practice.

Posted on: 2007/10/22 13:33
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Re: High/Low Probability Techniques
Permanent Village Fixture
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Quote:

Zenigata wrote:
So I believe a lot of budo is about transforming low percentage to high percentage. This is why we practice.


Well said. I agree entirely.

What I mentioned earlier that I would be unlikely to use was omote gyaku dori, not omote gyaku. The distancing for the strike accompanying the wrist lock is something that I have too poor an understanding of to put to effective use. Omote gyaku itself I love.

The military has an RPG defense system now on some vehicles where it automatically seeks incoming projectiles, turns to meet them and fires a shotgun-like weapon to destroy the projectile before it hits. In effect you are hitting a bullet with a bullet as a matter of "practical" self defense. What you have trained to do and your understanding of it defines what is a low percentage technique. Needless to say without the appropriate technology (training in our case), this approach would do little for your average person.

This technology has so many ways that it can go wrong if there is a single problem with it's execution. And yet this is the best defense we have when applied correctly. Taijutsu can be the same way I think. With proper training the seemingly impossible can be your best bet.

Posted on: 2007/10/22 14:15
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Re: High/Low Probability Techniques
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Quote:

Shinoobie wrote:
What I mentioned earlier that I would be unlikely to use was omote gyaku dori, not omote gyaku.


These are the same thing. I think you are talking about the Kihon Happo Kata that was called something like "Omote Gyakku Ken Sabaki Gata" in the old Ninpo Taijutsu book?

Posted on: 2007/10/22 14:30
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Re: High/Low Probability Techniques
Permanent Village Fixture
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Quote:

Zenigata wrote:
So I believe a lot of budo is about transforming low percentage to high percentage. This is why we practice.


Sure. Its a great point.
But your admitting there is still a distinction of a "low percentage" and "high percentage" technique.

Things that require more fine motor skills are generally lower percentage. Those that use mainly gross motor skills are generally higher percentage.

The simple and more direct are higher percentage. The complex and indirect are lower percentage.

ETC.


just some ideas.

Posted on: 2007/10/22 15:35
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Re: High/Low Probability Techniques
Village Old Timer
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Ari,
I saw that my words were easy to misunderstand, you are wright to ask.

I want to give you an example to make it more clear. You punch, I can go to 90 degrees to jumonji or 45 degre to ichimonji inside or out side (you can make hundreds of different angles and positions wright?)than depending on your position you can kick, punch, headbutt or start your grabbing technique or whatever. You could be holding a weapon , or your one arm could be broken and it goes on like this. That was what I meant. ıf you are outside of the attack it is easier to make omote techniques and if you are inside it is easier to make ura techniques most of the times but it is not mandatory either. This was what I meant, I hope I could correct my explanation.

So when you read the above you see that there might be loads of different situations and we can not say a low probality technique.My idea only.

Thank you

Posted on: 2007/10/22 16:01
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Re: High/Low Probability Techniques
Permanent Village Fixture
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Terminology is not stressed in my training. I meant the one where you hit them with a counterstrike and do omote gyaku at the same time after they've grabbed you, and as a punch is coming in.

"Omote Gyaku Ken Sabaki Gata?" Is this correct?

Posted on: 2007/10/23 4:51
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Re: High/Low Probability Techniques
Village Old Timer
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Quote:

Things that require more fine motor skills are generally lower percentage. Those that use mainly gross motor skills are generally higher percentage.


I'm going to sort of "disagree while agreeing".

Your statement is actually true in the sense that methods using gross motor movements are easier to employ under stress, while fine motor skills may be difficult or impossible.

But let's take a look at just what we're talking about here and make sure we're "on the same page". As I understand the terms:

A motor skill is an action that involves the movement of muscles in your body. Gross motor skills are movements involving the larger muscle groups: arm, leg, or feet muscles or the entire body -- things like crawling, running, and jumping are gross motor skills. Fine motor skills are those smaller actions like picking things up between the thumb and finger or using the toes to wriggle into sand or the lips and tongue to taste and feel objects.

Okay so far?

Well, from my experience so far just about everything we do in the Bujinkan depends primarily on use of gross motor movements coming from the larger muscle groups -- things like using the legs to gain proper distance and positioning so that you're "ready for a technique to happen", using mainly the muscles of the legs and spine with proper skeletal alignment to generate force, etc., etc.

In other words, "gross motor movement" refers to movement -- which may actually be very small -- generated by the larger muscle groups, NOT necessarily to "large movements".

Posted on: 2007/10/23 7:46
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Re: High/Low Probability Techniques
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Just to hopefully clarify further, I've heard a fair amount of criticism from people in other martial arts to the effect that the Bujinkan's techniques are "low percentage" because they're too "intricate" or complex and too dependent on fine motor skills.

Which tells me that either they don't have a clue what they're seeing, or they're drawing their conclusions from watching the gazillion or so video clips posted to YouTube by practitioners who don't know what they're doing.

Or possibly both, of course.

Posted on: 2007/10/23 9:18
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Dale Seago
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Re: High/Low Probability Techniques
Permanent Village Fixture
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Dale,

I think we agree.
I was speaking more in generalities.

Catching a punch and turning it into a wrist lock, for example would employ fine motor skills. A low percentage move.

I'm sure we've all seen stuff like this done.

I believe there are other factors that lead to high probability or low probability, as I attempted to allude to earlier.

Good point though.

Posted on: 2007/10/23 9:21
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Re: High/Low Probability Techniques
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"Which tells me that either they don't have a clue what they're seeing, or they're drawing their conclusions from watching the gazillion or so video clips posted to YouTube by practitioners who don't know what they're doing."


I would definately agree with you on that Dale, LOL! There seem to be so many critical of what we do and yet have zero understanding of what it is. This whole "high probability" and "low probability" thing may just be another way of saying K.I.S.S. which is always a good idea.

Posted on: 2007/10/23 10:14
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