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Re: Three points of contact
Village Old Timer
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Gee whiz there are so many ways to look at this. I think it is great to be able to have multiple points of contact that you can shift from and to in order to control and feel the Uke. Sure they can potentially feel you, but you can control what feelings you give them.

At the same time you do need to be able to feel and control the uke with less than multiple points too, that would be one to none. I guess when you only have one point of contact, there really are more things you are using to control and feel the uke. You have all your other senses to use.

When Soke uses a sword, he rarely limits himself to only one point of contact.

And finally back to the begining, although we are bipedal, we do not stand on only 2 points. In fact unless you are standing on stilts, you need heel, toes and the sole of your foot to maintain balance well.

Marty

Posted on: 2009/1/29 2:26
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Re: Three points of contact
Village Old Timer
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Quote:

mindwrench wrote:
No matter how aggressive someone is they are still bound by the dictates of bio-mechanics and this includes the pre-conscious feedback mechanism of proprioception. Specific tension applied to multiple points can create proprioceptive dissonance, where the person's nervous system attempts to respond correctly to the contacts, but the data coming in is in conflict with each other, and so causes inappropriate responses ( in terms of balance, placement of body weight, etc).


Yes.

As a simple example, when in actual contact (touching in some way), tactile data can be "read" and responded to more quickly than visual input. Thus, if you are touching him in the right way(s) you can be changing position, avoiding something dangerous, etc. without his realizing it even though he can see you perfectly well because, in the moment, he more readily "believes" what he feels than what he sees. . .and the dissonance thus created causes him to not respond appropriately to what you're doing.

Actually that's pretty much just another way of restating what Rob just said, but in this case I'm talking about something as simple as receiving a punch (single point of contact) and avoiding a following kick while placing yourself in a position to be able to do something decisive -- think Gyokko ryu here.

It can get really interesting when you're "feeding" him different/conflicting tactile data at multiple points of contact while none of those match up with what's happening visually.

BTW Rob, I'm looking forward to seeing you and Paul Masse on this side of the water in March!

Posted on: 2009/1/29 6:50
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Re: Three points of contact
Village Old Timer
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Quote:

This is true if you are "torquing" (applying lots of uncontrolled, non-specific tension) into your opponent.
If, however, you are doing what Hatsumi Sensei and the top Shihan are constantly demonstrating, using specific amounts of tension to create a false sense of security in the opponent's proprioceptive system (kyojitsu), then you will be able to have many points of contact and still "take the fight out" of him. (This is what Papasan is referring to I believe)


I understand exactly what you mean. You’ve used this type of movement on me, as well as seen it demonstrated over and over again by the shihan – I’m not going to disagree with you of whether it works it does. However, I have to disagree with how it works and the general mechanics.

I agree Proprioception does create dissonance; however it is still done through three points of contact. Keep in mind we are talking about throws and standing techniques in general, if we are talking about submissions then the three points of contact idea can go out the window.

Rob, I think your movement uses only three points of contact in throws and other general set up to throwing techniques. But they are moving points of contact creating the illusion of more than three points of contact but there are only three points.

The response that people have is the product of their trying to counter a balance point or find a reference point to stabilize their balance, but they are late on the response and adjusting at the wrong places. You do this by traveling along many points but retaining only three points of contact.

You are sliding along multiple points but in reality only have three points at any given time. Now if this is what everyone means by multiple points of contact I have no disagreements.

As far as taking away their aggressiveness, confusion can take it away but you do that not by multiple points. And aggressiveness isn’t necessarily taken away by these movements, you may stop them from attacking, not because you are being nice to them, but rather that you are controlling them.

I'll add this for a rather easy introduction:
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1699

Posted on: 2009/1/29 9:00
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Re: Three points of contact
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Good posts guys.

Rob, I understand where you are coming from, but even this year, with the theme of rope, Hatsumi Sensei has talked about having many points of contact so that you allow your opponent to become "tangled up" in your rope-like movement.

If you are saying that only 3 of the points he uses are necessary, well...maybe. At my level I will try to give as much false data as possible (kyojitsu), when I get to Sensei's level, I can do it with a maximum of three.

Anyhow, rather than try to limit ourselves to the "exact way that it is", keep in mind that whatever we think we know right now, will look foolish or at least incomplete to us in the future.

So Rob, work with your three point theory, flesh it out, and let me know how it goes (in the dojo).


Speaking of points of contact and kyojitsu, Paul Masse is amazing at this. If there is anybody in the Bujinkan who can mimic Sensei's taijutsu and come up with the kind of ideas that Sensei does, its Paul.

So the seminar there in the San Fran/ Sacramento area should be a great one Dale. Looking forward top training with you again!

Posted on: 2009/1/29 11:38
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Rob Renner

The question you should ask is not
"What will his next attack be and how should I respond to it?",
but "What could I have done beforehand to pre-determine his next move!"
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Re: Three points of contact
Village Old Timer
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Rob,
Honestly, I would have to say other regulars have a better feel for what Hatsumi sensei is doing than I do. I don't spend enough time around Hatsumi sensei to really comment on what he is doing. But, that could have something to do with my current level also.

I won't make any claims about knowing about this art, but I have a bunch of beliefs about this art that could turn out to be false or true.

But, I'm sure to see you soon enough to talk more (and hopefully I might have something worked out in a couple of years). The beauty of the martial arts training is the training itself. Martial arts and martial artists themselves are "works in progress" and are never finished products.

Posted on: 2009/1/29 14:10
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Re: Three points of contact
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I agree, very interesting posts. What must one do to have their "technique" work? Well, if it comes as a complete surprise to your opponent it will probably work. If you confuse his mind about what you are doing or misdirect his attention, you have a much greater chance of this taking place. You should never be giving your opponent data that he can use against you, you must hide your intention and your actions. It really then becomes unimportant that you have specifically 3 points of contact, you may have more or less, it is just that so much misdirection is occurring that your opponent can't sort it out in the time he has. I hope I am not confusing anyone here, if I am I do apologize. Most people starting out think of using their hands and forget that they also have legs and knees that can control the other persons options without them being aware in time. One should never focus on only one part of the body, you control the whole body. You find and occupy the "safe" place for you which is also a very unsafe place for them. Anyway just some of my thoughts.

Posted on: 2009/1/29 14:17
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Re: Three points of contact
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Movement can be viewed as a compromise between stability and mobility. Lying flat on my back on the ground with limbs spread out gives me maximum stability, minimal mobility. Being in midair gives minimal stability, maximal mobility (control over that mobility is a different matter).

3 points of control makes the uke more stable and less mobile compared to only 1 point of control. This interplay between creating stability and mobility in the uke -- or the illusions of these dynamics -- is an important part of studying both kata and organic movement, I think.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 4:07
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Re: Three points of contact
Permanent Village Fixture
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Quote:

muzosa wrote:
3 points of control makes the uke more stable and less mobile compared to only 1 point of control. This interplay between creating stability and mobility in the uke -- or the illusions of these dynamics -- is an important part of studying both kata and organic movement, I think.


I disagree that multiple points of contact would/should make uke more stable. On the contrary, multiple points of contact should make creating instability in the opponent easier.
As long as the contact isnt just arbitrary.

Its all about control.
Its easier to control someone if your in an advantageous position with lots of contact points. Both by limiting his mobility and unbalancing him.

IMO

Posted on: 2009/1/30 5:39
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Re: Three points of contact
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Quote:

muzosa wrote:
Movement can be viewed as a compromise between stability and mobility. Lying flat on my back on the ground with limbs spread out gives me maximum stability, minimal mobility. Being in midair gives minimal stability, maximal mobility (control over that mobility is a different matter).

3 points of control makes the uke more stable and less mobile compared to only 1 point of control. This interplay between creating stability and mobility in the uke -- or the illusions of these dynamics -- is an important part of studying both kata and organic movement, I think.


very well put! i like it.

IMHO, the interplay extends also to your own stability (or perception of such for the uke).

peace
mn

Posted on: 2009/1/30 6:22
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Mariusz
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Re: Three points of contact
Village Old Timer
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Jeff,
I want to say I disagree, but what you've said has merit. I think there is a missing component the notion of the uke's balance. A stable "joe" can't be thrown easily, but the can be compressed and controlled using multiple points of contact.

It depends on what you mean by stable , I think.
I think about it for a bit and will get back to it a little later.

I'm starting to think we look a little like 3 blind men discovering we are touching an elephant.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 7:24
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