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Re: Three points of contact
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One of my newer students is a large man, very solid and built very similar to the late Butch (for those who remember him). You just can't move this guy unless he either moves himself or you have some dynamic force of the heavens coming down to do it for you...

The only way I can successfully control his balance is when I have manipulated him into willfully moving where I need him to - and not where he is supported - without him knowing it. This involves not just controlling one point, but at least 3. Many times the 3rd point is simply the point which gravity is pulling him, like a magnetic beam, and he is not able to adjust himself quick enough to stop it.

Usually he either stumbles and falls, or is so busy trying to right himself that all the vital openings are exposed for precise, surgical strikes. Either way, he isn't coming after me anymore!

Posted on: 2009/1/30 10:23
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Re: Three points of contact
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Quote:

侶武 wrote:

It depends on what you mean by stable , I think.


Exactly. My imprecise vocabulary is muddling things, I'm afraid.

Trying to throw a 20 pound weight with two hands is much easier than trying to use one hand to throw a 20 pound balloon waving around in the wind. But if you could hold that balloon in place (make it more stable), then you can exercise more control over it (toss it, compress it, etc.).

On the other hand, it takes less energy to redirect a ball in midair than it does to pick up a ball and throw it where you want it to go. Using kuzushi (via 3+ points of contact, perhaps) so that they're stable (under your control) so that an appropriate technique can follow (perhaps using multiple points of control, perhaps less).

Ganseki nage: multiple points of control to create kuzushi. While uke is in state of imbalance, fewer points of control are necessary in order to create the throw. But the trick is that the uke must be stable (under your control) in that transition, otherwise they'll escape or take ukemi.

As I write this I see I'm doing an awful job of expressing myself, but that's hardly a first...

Posted on: 2009/1/30 11:21
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Jeff Christian
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Re: Three points of contact
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Quote:

Darren wrote:
The only way I can successfully control his balance is when I have manipulated him into willfully moving where I need him to - and not where he is supported - without him knowing it. This involves not just controlling one point, but at least 3. Many times the 3rd point is simply the point which gravity is pulling him, like a magnetic beam, and he is not able to adjust himself quick enough to stop it.


This is what I was talking about, but I think we need to make the distinction between points of "balance" and points of "contact"

You can control many balance points with 1 point of contact. As Ed and Rob pointed out there are good reasons for having multiple points of contact, but I think we all agree that you should only have as many points of contact as are necessary

Markk Bush
www.bujinmag.com

Posted on: 2009/1/30 13:01
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Re: Three points of contact
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Quote:

Tengu6 wrote:
[quote]I think we all agree that you should only have as many points of contact as are necessary.


And there's the rub. How do you decide "how many" and "which one(s)" at any given point in time? Is the answer an absolute, a subjective, contextual, or variable? Or can it be answered at all? The study of these factors, I think, lead to interesting answers.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 13:16
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Jeff Christian
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Re: Three points of contact
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Looks like people quite talk about the same thing and many good points are done. When I mentioned about many points about sensors, looked like Papa-san and Rob got me. I meant touches, not stable movement or push, anyways I am sure you see Soke does this all the time. To fool the uke or to take his balance etc.

Important point is you can touch in one place but may have many points...like, touching his shoulder from the back but at the same time you use your little finger to sense his arm, with your wrist his shoulder, with your thumb his trapezus muscle and with the forefinger his neck.This way with one soft touch you have at least 4 points of touch and if you merely touch his leg with your without knowing him you may have 5-8 points. This way you will have many many alerts before he moves.

Please do not forget that the hands move faster than the eye so do not be fooled that you can see what uke does, you must feel it on your skin too. If you always train slowly you can fall into that trap so every one of us must train faster sometimes to see if we are doing all right.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 16:53
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Re: Three points of contact
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Frankly, I think it might just be a language issue that is separating most of the talk.

The terms we need sorted out are:
points of contact
Balance points
Stability
Pressure
Light
Soft
Types of Balance
the nature of the movement we are discribing
And are we talking throws and the act of throwing, or locking them up and taking their ability to attack away.

We clear these up I think our arguments (our ideas) will come clearer and probably more alike.


But, as far as the agression I still disagree.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 18:10
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Re: Three points of contact
Kutaki Postmaster
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Quote:

侶武 wrote:
Frankly, I think it might just be a language issue that is separating most of the talk.


I agree. Otherwise there's a lot of talking around a subject without being able to actually talk about it. Arguably, most of it is best talked about in person anyway, but that doesn't stop us from trying.

Posted on: 2009/1/30 20:42
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Jeff Christian
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Re: Three points of contact
Village Old Timer
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Quote:

侶武 wrote:
Frankly, I think it might just be a language issue that is separating most of the talk.

The terms we need sorted out are:
points of contact
Balance points
Stability
Pressure
Light
Soft
Types of Balance
the nature of the movement we are discribing
And are we talking throws and the act of throwing, or locking them up and taking their ability to attack away.

We clear these up I think our arguments (our ideas) will come clearer and probably more alike.


But, as far as the agression I still disagree.


Oh yes, I totally agree, eventhough I studied university in U.S.A. it was 12 years ago and surely I forgot my English a lot. When in Japan I can communicate much better as I cna use my body language too, or just show what I am talking about
Still it will be fun to read your posts.
Oh by the way , it was Rob Renner :blgrin

In the agression part, I tried it with a Japanese Shihan. I said to my self ''Ok I really will go on attacking him'' (ofcourse in control and respect lines). Surprisingly I lost my will to fight after the first punch when he touched and wrapped me with love then he kicked my ars* without mercy

Posted on: 2009/1/30 21:21
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Ercan SARBAT
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Re: Three points of contact
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Good thread.

I'll sit on the sidelines and let others talk, well, that and my own little sensei here is wailing for some dinner.

Posted on: 2009/2/1 2:54
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Re: Three points of contact
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"One of my newer students is a large man, very solid and built very similar to the late Butch (for those who remember him). You just can't move this guy unless he either moves himself or you have some dynamic force of the heavens coming down to do it for you..."


I find that I sometimes end up in a situation where I might have moved out of the way for an attack and stepped in close to the opponent. I might have missed to break his balance or the opportunity didn´t present itself. Then I just wait, "shadowing" the opponent, until he moves again. Then he is vunerable. When someone moves, they are imbalanced. Even if he is a big guy.

The above of course happens fast, in the split second of an encounter. My point is that if you "miss", you don´t really miss, but just await the next move of the opponent. Don´t use force, use patience.

Johan


Posted on: 2009/2/4 23:17
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