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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Don

Thanks for you friendly advice yet although you basically have stated that I am talking crap, you have not at all explained how you believe I am talking crap.

What I have posted I can use sources for. The sources have not only been posted on other forums i.e. the statistics for battlefield injuries in the sengoku Jidai period but was also something I looked at as part of my degree in archaeology at Leicester university. the battlefield injuries articles are I believe in World archaeology proceedings. They are on file at Leicester university.

If you take time to read through the archaeological findings you will notice that any sword cuts that are delivered are either thrusts or cuts to the head. Not too many kesa giri cuts, or certainly none that i could find in the literature.

By the way heres the link to some statistics.

http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/manji/page39.html

Note Don, that there were only 58 sword wounds to 1428 wounds with other weapons. Even thrown rocks caused more damage.

But then I guess Dr Karl Fridays statistics are wrong too?

This from sword forum international

"It is often supposed that the Japanese sword arts of today are directly linked to the arts of the Sengoku Jidai, the age of wars that predated the Tokugawa peace. While it is true that some of the schools I will describe claim an unbroken lineal descent from that time to this, it is doubtful what we study today is what was practiced on those long ago battlefields"

And we know that there were major changes in sword styles after the beginning of the Tokugawa period.

The article also states

"Add to that the relative lack of detailed technical writing about the schools (often what was written was barely more than a listing of techniques) and you are left with the almost inescapable conclusion that what we practice today is barely linked to what the Samurai in the wars practiced."

And if your going to claim I'm wrong in this regard then you need to provide EVIDENCE.

As Dr Karl Friday pointed out in regard to historical evidence

"There aren't any e-maki densho that date back to the sengoku era--the earliest extant example comes from 1596, but this genre of document didn't really become popular until the mid-17th century. Other kinds of documents from the pre-Tokugawa era aren't much help either. The catalogs of techniques and principles that were produced during this era are just unannotated lists. There are instructional poetry collections from earlier periods, but this kind of verse tends to focus of general principles, not technical matters.

So what we're left with is the kata of the ryuha themselves, as it exists today and/or as it is depicted in Tokugawa era documents. I don't know of any of the latter that depict battlefield jujutsu. And the former is always problematic: Most ryuha, of course, claim to do exactly the same things today that they were doing in the 1600s. Unfortunately, this is clearly wishful thinking. Changes to the outward forms of techniques are inevitable in arts like the bugei, which are transmitted mostly by direct man-to-man instruction. 400 years of playing "the telephone game" can introduce a lot of static. And the bugei evolved quite a bit during the early Tokugawa era."

So pleae Don if your going to say that what I am saying is rubbish you need to provide evidence to the contrary. As Densho of swordsmanship from the mid Sengoku Jidai period would be a place to start.

As for the second part you posted, maybe you can tell us all when and where Gyokko ryu was used on the battlefield?

I'm sure I at least would find it interesting.

Theres some great books Don by an author I know you would love. His names is Dr Masaaki Hatsumi, you should look them out sometime and have a read.

Finally you posted

"It would take a very long, detailed post that you would probably ignore and try to debate to appear that you are not as ignorant as we know you are."

As opposed to arrogant as some people have said that you are.

Garth

Posted on: 2009/7/17 19:37
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Benkoka posted

"Because it has sword work in it."

Source please

Garth

Posted on: 2009/7/17 19:38
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Quote:

Garth wrote:
Don

Thanks for you friendly advice yet although you basically have stated that I am talking crap, you have not at all explained how you believe I am talking crap.


Because, as I noted you would take a lot of time to write and you would ignore it and instead debate away in an attempt to post yourself as an expert in the field instead of being honest in trying to learn something.

So why should I bother?

Lets look at the following,

"The sources have not only been posted on other forums i.e. the statistics for battlefield injuries in the sengoku Jidai period but was also something I looked at as part of my degree in archaeology at Leicester university"

Yes, somehow I knew you were going to find a way to mention that you had a degree, but still manage to foul up any statistics you might find.

I do not consider saying that I have had a bit more experience in the matter, and that you have no knowledge of the matter, to be arrogant. It is just simple fact.

Here is a question for you to ponder, if swords were against the monkish habits you mention preventing Gyokko ryu members from carrying swords- why did they carry Kyoketsushoge? And why is there a battlefield version that replaces the cord with a chain?

Were you even aware of these simple facts? If you had read Hatsumi's articles in Hiden magazine for the last decade or so, you might. The fact that the kyoketsushoge is from Gyokko ryu is not even that hard to find in English sources.

I see a very long post by you trying to say that you do indeed know something, but my advice to you is still to approach things from the standpoint that you know nothing. Because people inside and outside the Bujinkan are pointing out that you know nothing and you are letting your ego get in the way of your growth.

But you will not find many people willing to help you overcome your ignorance until you make an honest effort to prove that you are willing to listen and learn. We can't help you until we see that you will honestly listen and try to understand instead of pumping yourself up as an expert once again.

Posted on: 2009/7/17 20:15
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Don Roley posted

"Because, as I noted you would take a lot of time to write and you would ignore it and instead debate away in an attempt to post yourself as an expert in the field instead of being honest in trying to learn something.

So why should I bother?"

Well your obviously not bothered with te time it takes to keep replying to me, so why not post why you believe what i wrote was rubbish.

And I suspect again that after this you will reply again, yet still dont have the time to actually tell me why I am wrong.

"Yes, somehow I knew you were going to find a way to mention that you had a degree, but still manage to foul up any statistics you might find."

Where are the statistics wrong?

Or are you not going to tell me because you dont have time?

"I do not consider saying that I have had a bit more experience in the matter, and that you have no knowledge of the matter, to be arrogant. It is just simple fact."

Thats called arrogance Don

"Here is a question for you to ponder, if swords were against the monkish habits you mention preventing Gyokko ryu members from carrying swords- why did they carry Kyoketsushoge?"

Yes i know, heres a question for you to ponder Don, if Gyokko ryu had a kyokessu shoge, why did they need a sword?

"And why is there a battlefield version that replaces the cord with a chain?"

Again why did they need a sword if they had a bloody great chain weapon?

And possibly just possibly don as the kyoketsu shoge was a binding weapon it might fit in with a Buddhists idea of non violence.

Although of course we must understand the modern interpretation of that Non violence as opposed to the Tantric idea.

"Were you even aware of these simple facts? If you had read Hatsumi's articles in Hiden magazine for the last decade or so, you might. The fact that the kyoketsushoge is from Gyokko ryu is not even that hard to find in English sources."

Yes I was aware and if my stuff wasnt packed up for moving I could tell you who invented it.

"I see a very long post by you trying to say that you do indeed know something, but my advice to you is still to approach things from the standpoint that you know nothing. Because people inside and outside the Bujinkan are pointing out that you know nothing and you are letting your ego get in the way of your growth.

But you will not find many people willing to help you overcome your ignorance until you make an honest effort to prove that you are willing to listen and learn. We can't help you until we see that you will honestly listen and try to understand instead of pumping yourself up as an expert once again."

Whose an expert?

At least when i debate I post sources

Garth

Posted on: 2009/7/17 20:44
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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This could be of interest

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site. ... 5&csProduct_productID=223

Funny no mention of swords in Gyokko ryu

and he states

"The Grandmaster Hachiryu Nyudo used a secret weapon called a "Kyoketsu-Shoge" to hit the enemies sword and disarm them"

As for the idea about Buddhism you do know what the prefix "Doshi" means dont you. you know as in Gamon Doshi, Garyu Doshi

Which is probably why it says...

"Gyokko Ryu's motto is to try to have harmony, even with the enemy and to avoid fighting while keeping a smile. If there is no choice but to fight, then completely knock down the enemy without allowing them to touch you."

Anyway Don until you can come back with some sources i think its best we both dont waste time here

Garth

Posted on: 2009/7/17 21:21
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Garth, I'm far from an expert in such matters, but I do know that there is a lot more material contained within the nine ryuha than is publicly known about. It's seems foolish to argue in public about things you probably don't have as good a picture of as you may think. Don may be abrasive in his online persona, but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

It's important not to confuse the published material Soke has put out with the totality of the material that exists. Just because something isn't written down in a book or on a DVD doesn't mean it's not there. This is something the Internet is just awful for - people presume an awful lot.

It's not up to me to talk about what is and isn't contained within the nine schools, as that is Soke's perogative and not mine, but I've certianly learned lots of interesting things that don't appear on any DVD or in any book. (I'm not particulary special, so it would be foolish not to assume that lots of other people have learned a lot more than me.)

A good example is the Ura Gata Futatsu that appears in the Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu - each of the formal kata has two formal variations recorded within the densho. Until Soke published his most recent book, that material wasn't publicly available and most people not training closely with a Japanese shihan probably didn't know it existed. It was however taught explicitly in Japan at Soke's classes in 2006 (or at least it was in the classes I attended.)

Before Soke's most recent book came out, there was no public reference for that material - if I mentioned it on a forum and it challenged your preconceived idea of what was contained within Shinden Fudo Ryu, you might ask me for a source. But there wouldn't have been one for me to point you to, even supposing I wanted to.

It wouldn't have made me wrong. Not everything true is referenced somewhere in a publicly accessible way.

Posted on: 2009/7/17 21:44
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Quote:

Garth wrote:
Don Roley posted

"Because, as I noted you would take a lot of time to write and you would ignore it and instead debate away in an attempt to post yourself as an expert in the field instead of being honest in trying to learn something.

So why should I bother?"

Well your obviously not bothered with te time it takes to keep replying to me, so why not post why you believe what i wrote was rubbish.

And I suspect again that after this you will reply again, yet still dont have the time to actually tell me why I am wrong.

"Yes, somehow I knew you were going to find a way to mention that you had a degree, but still manage to foul up any statistics you might find."

Where are the statistics wrong?

Or are you not going to tell me because you dont have time?


Garth,

Mark Twain once said that there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

You are trying to say how swords were used based on fatal wounds. You have not considered the idea that it may take more than one blow to kill someone wearing armor. If I cut someone in the stomach with a shallow cut and they drop and then I cleave their skull in with a full powered blow, what will the bones show a few centuries from now? Not the stomach cut.

This is not a matter of fact, since we were not there. It is a matter of being able to apply critical thinking to the matter and thinking that there may be more than we think about the matter.



Quote:

Garth wrote:
Yes i know, heres a question for you to ponder Don, if Gyokko ryu had a kyokessu shoge, why did they need a sword?

"And why is there a battlefield version that replaces the cord with a chain?"

Again why did they need a sword if they had a bloody great chain weapon?

And possibly just possibly don as the kyoketsu shoge was a binding weapon it might fit in with a Buddhists idea of non violence.


Garth, if you thought about the matter you would know that sometimes a sword is the best weapon and sometimes something else is what you would use. The kyoketsushoge has a very nasty point to it, quite capable of stabbing and killing someone. If they had that, why would they have a problem with carrying a sword that also has the ability to kill?

I am not even saying that they did or not, I am talking about the logic, or lack of it, you are using in the matter.

Seriously, even if you believe the legends of the Gyokko ryu being started by monks in China, what makes you think that it would not hesitate to adapt to circumstances in the age of war in Iga? If the buddhist prohibitions and such were so strong, why team up with arts like the Togakure ryu and Koto ryu that had a very lethal way of fighting?

This is the type of critical thinking you should be trying for. It is not just your lack of facts about the matter that is the problem, but your inability to use critical thinking about the subject matter. Lets look at the first paragraph of the post that drew me in.

Quote:

Garth wrote:

From what i understand Gyokko Ryu was a method of martial arts passed down by monks and as such carrying a sword might be against the teachings they were following.


You understand wrong. What makes you think that an art passed down in Japan would not adapt to circumstances and must always be preserved as is? The Gyokko ryu was not passed down by monks in Japan according to the legends. Why would non monks be bothered to even be concerned with their Chinese founders IF the legends are true? If it is a case that the sokes of the Gyokko ryu were so concerned with preserving the monkish habits of the founders, why would they ever be the same person as the soke of the Togakure ryu that does indeed have sword work? If just does not make sense.

Again, it is not that you do not have any knowledge about the subject matter, not is it that you can't seem to apply critical thinking, it is your inability to accept that you are not an expert and argue your outlandish theories once you state them that keep you from ever gaining any level of decent understanding. We can't help you until you accept your faults and try to overcome them. Don't expect us to take much time to show you more knowledge, our best hope is to point out how you do not know something so others will not be misled. We would like to help you, but can't until you are willing to change.

Posted on: 2009/7/17 21:49
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Cuchulain posted

Quote:
Garth, I'm far from an expert in such matters, but I do know that there is a lot more material contained within the nine ryuha than is publicly known about. It's seems foolish to argue in public about things you probably don't have as good a picture of as you may think.


I think your post is a good one and certainly warns against people making claims, but I think we need to look at where I have done this. I started my posts on this thread by posting.

Quote:
Just a thought, but is there any reason that Gyokko Ryu should have sword work within it.


Note this is not a claim its a thought, an idea I am throwing into the pot as a means of discussion.

I continue...

Quote:
From what i understand Gyokko Ryu was a method of martial arts passed down by monks and as such carrying a sword might be against the teachings they were following.


Note the phrase from what I understand. Again NOT a claim.

Quote:
In regard to sword work, I think that the sword is over estimated as a weapon on the battlefields of Japan. What swords were used were probably very large.


Note the phrase "I think" again not a claim.

Quote:
Have you ever wondered why we have lots of defences from downward cuts and thrusts but not defences from same gyaku kesa giri or kesa giri or yoko giri.

Well as it was explained to me, The swords on the battlefields were too heavy and cumbersome to do those type of cuts. These cuts are common with latter edo period sword work (Off the battlefield) but not on the battlefield.


Note the phrases "Have you ever wondered" and As it was explained to me"

In otherwords someone elses opinion which i am open to discusion about.

Quote:
Also statistics of battlefield injuries in the sengoku Jidai in regard to the sword injuries from the weapon were very very few. The spear, bow and gun making up the most casualties that seem to appear.


Here I produce my first quote evidence from Dr Karl Friday.

Not my views, the views of an eminent historian in Japanese history.

I finish by saying...

Quote:
So if Gyokko Ryu was a Buddhist influenced art which was the foundation of Ninjutsu and used by Ninja like Momochi Whoses job was spying), why would the art have any sword work, especilally if it was never used on the battlefield.

And any sword work a ninja like Momochi would need would be in the Togakure Ryu.

Incidently isnt the Togakure Ryu also in the Gyokko ryu makimono


Notice the phrases "So if", "Why would", "Incidently isnt"

Are these not all questions. In fact where in this post have I made a claim.

But the answer is to that post

Quote:
Accept the fact that you know nothing about the subject matter and stop postulating about things only to try to defend your theories later on as the silliness of them is pointed out to you.


Notice how Don has taken what I said as though its a claim. Yet nowhere in this first post have I actually claimed anything. In fact what i did post was in the form of a question.

Garth

Posted on: 2009/7/18 2:51
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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But following from my last post

Benkyoka posted

Quote:
Because it has sword work in it.


This is a claim. To which i have asked a source for.

Quote:
Yes, somehow I knew you were going to find a way to mention that you had a degree, but still manage to foul up any statistics you might find.


This is also a claim. Please state why either the statistics are wrong, or how I have misunderstood the statistics.

Garth

Posted on: 2009/7/18 3:00
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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a post about kenjutsu in bujinkan replied with posting a link to the genbukan... anyone else find this humorous... tenemura was hatsumi's uke and whatnot but im just saying... Tenemura felt the need to leave (or perhaps was dismissed?), Soke teaches one, way Tenemura another...

Posted on: 2009/7/18 3:09
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