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Re: An article with solid advice across arts
Village Old Timer
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Quote:

Darren wrote:
Well this likely might be more common in dojos outside of the Hombu and maybe even Japan itself, but many times I've ended up partnering with someone who is so new they don't even know how to strike properly - like really bad. In that situation, I had to stop them and teach them how to do the attack so that I could do the technique. The instructor didn't need to come over and tutor the student as I felt there was no need. I had it covered.

The student didn't ask me for the instruction. I just 'knew' it needed to be done or the rest of the training was useless. Being above godan myself, the student just assumed I knew what I was talking about and followed my direction - and his attack was good enough for us to continue.

Does this fall into 'ought not'? Should I have bothered his instructor to come over and teach how to attack?

I think there is a line between helping someone with a basic, fundamentally necessary movement (like a punch) and trying to teach what the instructor is teaching. I just don't see it as such a black and white issue.

Having awareness and sensitivity in the situation I think is of key importance.


Did people miss the part about training partners? There is a certain amount of advice given between training partners with a tacit agreement between the two of you.

Your question has already been preemptively answered in this thread Darren.


Posted on: 2010/10/26 3:55
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Re: An article with solid advice across arts
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That wasn't the point of the article. To put it in perspective say you go to the hombu and train with one of the shihan and some random 15th dan, not the teacher of the class, walks around the class giving advice willy nilly. Should the 15th dan dispense advice in the presence of that teacher?

And similarly say you have a visiting budoka and he gives advice to your students about how to do certain techniques. Ought he do that, given you are the teacher?


Posted on: 10/21 5:23




Rob,
You're changing your argument. What started as a comment about dojo training in general has now become a venting session about foreigners who visit and dole out advice like its their birthright and responsibility. Nobody likes when those guys do that. Those guys don't like when other guys do it to them, either.

Really, you've never been solicited advice from a Japanese national? I don't believe that. It happens. It especially happens to women. It may be a result of Soke leaving room for foreigners to do it. It may be another reason. The article leads me to believe that this is more of a common annoyance for all martial arts schools in general.


Quote:

RJHIII wrote:
Jim,

I would agree there might be times when certain people out to give unsolicited advice, however I'd like to keep that number down to 5-6 people total, i.e. Hatsumi sensei and the menkyo kaiden holders.

We have a slight problem if we allow more than that, what qualifies a person to be highly experienced. Would RVD count? Also, what is dangerous to someone that can do it? For example, a juggler of chainsaws juggling chainsaws ins't all that dangerous, but to someone who can't juggle them it may be.







So that we don't get careless and go dangerously off course, I'll respond to the question involving the analogy. That game's fun. The straw man and the ad hominem you can keep. You know better than that.

I should have qualified experience to say "outside experience". It was implied but not explained well enough. My bad. Under your analogy, it would fit if the juggling "lesson of the day" at the Rob the Magnificent's (sorry I couldn't resist :) ) juggling school was specifically on fitting chainsaws into the act. Jim No Thumbs, an ex-logger who is new to the school, arrives a little late but just in time to see some cool skills but hear some bad advice about chainsaws he once received just prior to obtaining his current moniker. There are senior students at the school who have studied there for years. Everyone holds them in high regard, looks to them for advice and sometimes for lessons outside of the normal class time. Each of the class seniors swears up and down that they are all seeing this for the first time. It's coming their turn to start picking up chainsaws.

Given his years of experience in his previous career that had him carrying, using, and practicing chainsaw safety (most of the time ;) ) ought Jim No Thumbs mention his concern to the instructor of the class?

I believe so.


-Jim

This is a good topic. Thanks for bringing it up.

Posted on: 2010/10/26 13:22
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Re: An article with solid advice across arts
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Jim actually I haven't changed my argument, it simply wasn't formally laid out in the beginning. I made exceptions for menkyo Kaiden holders close to the beginning of formalizing it.

I haven't received unsolicited advice, outside of kendo from non-members of the dojo I was attending. However, keep in mind the tacit and implicit agreement stuff I mentioned earlier.

I haven't made a straw man argument, nor an ad hominem. It was a serious question about what constitutes someone as highly experienced. I used RVD to illustrate the point further.

Menkyo Kaiden holders convey mastery over a ryu ha they have menkyo kaiden. A 15th dan doesn't, the question was what would constitute highly ranked and highly experienced if we use something other than the menkyo kaiden holders? This was my original exception early in my postings on this subject.

I'll have to think about your thoughts about the chainsaw juggling example. It sounds interesting, I perhaps could miss something if I comment now.

Good post.



Posted on: 2010/10/26 13:53
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Re: An article with solid advice across arts
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Quote:

RJHIII wrote:
Menkyo Kaiden holders convey mastery over a ryu ha they have menkyo kaiden. A 15th dan doesn't, …….


This may not be the case. I talked to a particular shihan about his menkyo at his home dojo and he clearly stated that he hadn’t been given any additional instruction or training beyond that of the others. Also he didn’t have the full densho or other documents or kuden. He said that the menkyo kaiden were given out for a particular issue at a particular time. There have been at least a couple of recent additional receivers of menkyo kaiden and I saw Hatsumi-sensei telling one that he would give him a copy of the densho relating to it.

Of course there is a menkyo kaiden holder who isn’t a 15th Dan and other anomalies to all this.

My point here is I think you are creating rules to complicate an issue. If soke in his classes or one of the shihan in their classes has asked someone to walk around and help out then that’s fine. If someone just decides to do that themselves they probably shouldn’t. Isn’t it that simple?

Posted on: 2010/10/26 14:30
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Re: An article with solid advice across arts
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Duncan,

It will turn into something like you said, but I'm working out a philosophical stance on the subject not a practical stance on the subject.

The philosophical argument can seem a bit complicated, but in reality it isn't that complicated. The argument probably won't have any bearing on what people actually will do in these situations, but it can provide a framework ( when complete) for discerning whether one "ought" to have or "ought" not have given unsolicited advice.

Actually at this point it's more of a logical puzzle for me to solve.
The general gist is as you said above, but it fails to give reasons why.

If everyone looks at this as a mere exercise I think people would get more out of it.

Posted on: 2010/10/27 0:41
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Re: An article with solid advice across arts
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Quote:

RJHIII wrote:
If everyone looks at this as a mere exercise I think people would get more out of it.


At a minimum, I am at least taking notice of this with myself. I think many of us might be a bit guilty in some form or another, or at least we've experienced it in a seminar or class. Being aware of the affect our actions have on others is important. Knowing when advice is welcomed and when it's just interference or stepping on another's toes is equally important.

It's good to know when "shut up and train" is the best way to learn, and best way to show respect to the instructor.

I think that's probably about as much as I can get from all of this.

Posted on: 2010/10/27 2:14
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Re: An article with solid advice across arts
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Quote:

I should have qualified experience to say "outside experience". It was implied but not explained well enough. My bad. Under your analogy, it would fit if the juggling "lesson of the day" at the Rob the Magnificent's (sorry I couldn't resist :) ) juggling school was specifically on fitting chainsaws into the act. Jim No Thumbs, an ex-logger who is new to the school, arrives a little late but just in time to see some cool skills but hear some bad advice about chainsaws he once received just prior to obtaining his current moniker. There are senior students at the school who have studied there for years. Everyone holds them in high regard, looks to them for advice and sometimes for lessons outside of the normal class time. Each of the class seniors swears up and down that they are all seeing this for the first time. It's coming their turn to start picking up chainsaws.

Given his years of experience in his previous career that had him carrying, using, and practicing chainsaw safety (most of the time ;) ) ought Jim No Thumbs mention his concern to the instructor of the class?

I believe so.


-Jim

This is a good topic. Thanks for bringing it up.


If I understand this well enough you are talking about safety issues with with the handling of chainsaws. I assume it is some technical issue with the chainsaw or something that the instructor got wrong.

I don't think I would disagree with your assessment. But, does one high ranking need to factor into it at all?

To bring it back to the martial arts we study. There are several techniques as listed in the densho, that could be potentially dangerous. Yet, by doing them in practice does that necessarily mean they are meant for self defense?

Or are they tools to make are self-defense skills better. Muto-dori is highly dangerous if meeting a real swordsman, the likely hood of surviving is probably quite low. I am more than willing to prove this point for anyone with a fukuroshinai . But, they do help teach certain skills that would benefit other things related to one's self defense skills do they not?

Aren't some skills merely dangerous to do regardless, and are they all that dangerous if a person has been trained or trains to perfect those skills to the point they aren't all that dangerous for him?

So, is something done that appears to be dangerous in the dojo necessarily warrant the unsolicited advice to the instructor? I'm not entirely sure. I'd like to hear more about when people think they "ought" to offer unsolicited advice.

I'm not sure still what to make of it.

Posted on: 2010/10/27 4:44
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Re: An article with solid advice across arts
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I'm not sure if this applies to me, as my knowledge is fairly slim. But if I was in a class and a teacher showed something foolishly or dangerous for myself (without having been a prior set or series of lessons), I might be interested in having a guest come over to share their experience with the technique, or a similar out-of-the-dojo technique, it could be beneficial to my training.

I don't know if the above is logical at all. If I was shown something dangerous and I was none-the-wiser... I think I'd welcome a guest sharing knowledge with me.

However... I'm not sure if that really falls under unsolicited.

Posted on: 2010/10/27 9:21
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Re: An article with solid advice across arts
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That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Posted on: 2010/10/27 10:00
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Re: An article with solid advice across arts
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Quote:

wawup wrote:
I'm not sure if this applies to me, as my knowledge is fairly slim. But if I was in a class and a teacher showed something foolishly or dangerous for myself (without having been a prior set or series of lessons), I might be interested in having a guest come over to share their experience with the technique, or a similar out-of-the-dojo technique, it could be beneficial to my training.

I don't know if the above is logical at all. If I was shown something dangerous and I was none-the-wiser... I think I'd welcome a guest sharing knowledge with me.

However... I'm not sure if that really falls under unsolicited.


A lot of people have been bringing up straw man examples like this involving an incompetent main instructor teaching something and a competent guest instructor correcting.

However, given that the discussion here seems to be about Hatsumi-sensei's class, that does not apply as clearly Soke is not incompetent and instructors (by which I don't mean the shihan, I mean Westerners) trying to "explain" his teachings are more likely than not to distort them.

This is paraphrasing what I read in the thread. I don't have any personal experience with this so I have no opinion on the matter.

Posted on: 2010/10/27 13:06
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