Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Socialize
 

Recent Topics
Topic Replies Last Post
Wedding gift... can someone help me to translate it? 6 2018/6/30 20:50
Barga18
Aomori-Ken 0 2018/6/19 10:27
hanzo-tou
Certificates 0 2018/5/8 4:34
schistkicker
Home Project: Shadowbox 3 2018/4/25 21:44
roufus
Ichiba 0 2018/2/21 1:18
Dpinga

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



(1) 2 »


thoughts on Bujinkan from 1977
Active Kutakian
Joined:
2005/3/29 2:47
From Atlanta, United States
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 148
Offline
NOTE: this is a post from budoseek, subsequently posted on martial arts planet: I am posting the link below. This is a curious view of Bujinkan history that I would like to know if anyone else can verify. Paul W.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/foru ... ve/index.php/t-64205.html

Ellis Amdur wrote:

I've been reading this thread with a few smiles - Meik can handle his own wolf tickets, if he wants to, so I've got nothing at all to say there. But a few things as my name came up:

1) "koryu.com" is not an organization. It's a website, and the folks "on" it are mostly people who have published articles in one of Meik and Diane's books. We are mostly friends. But we sure don't agree (in particular, people often don't agree with me). So there is no koryusnob.com to speak for. I'll just speak for me.

2) Janty wrote: "Also, in speaking with Ellis on www.swordforumbugei.com he has told me that he doesn't really have first hand knowledge of the Bujinkan. First hand means, Hatsumi-sensei to (insert name here)." I don't have the exact words, but I know I didn't say that! In posting about the known history of the bisento, I said something to the effect that I didn't want to get back into the sorry debate about the Bujinkan-koryu/gendai, proof/no proof of history etc. I do, in fact, have some first hand knowledge/contact with the Takamatsu-den. As follows:

My first significant aikido teacher, Terry Dobson, was Hatsumi-san's first non-Japanese student. He'd whip these outrageous techniques on me - I still remember being pinned face first into a wall by Terry's enormous belly, his forehead against the back of my neck, and his fingers thrust deep in my cheeks, half ripping my face off. He used to regale me with stories about his time with him (one of these stories is still floating around on some newsgroup about the time Hatsumi was showing off to Terry and took a running flip off the top of some stairs, and hitting bottom, crashed thru the wooden floor and was stuck up to his waist. His wife came out, laughing, saying, "Hah. The great ninja, caught again!")

They were roughly the same age, and had, apparently, hilarious times together. Terry had utter admiration for his skills and his character. Then in 1977, he came to Japan with a business associate and he visited H-san and brought us along. Tanemura-san, still a member of the organization was there, and several other guys whom I recognized the pictures from Q. Chamber's book. We were given, sort of, a class. A lot of it hurt - but I was already doing other stuff that hurt, so that didn't blow me away. My most significant memory, however, was H-san shoving a jutte up my nose - I was, thruout this "practice," being a good uke-student, accepting whatever happened. Anyway, that hurt too, but I figured it was just a new experience. But then, H-san, turned around, WITHOUT wiping the snot-covered jutte (and it was! I'm allergic to cats, and Hatsumi-san had about 20 of the beasts), grabbed the third guy by the throat (obviously not a budo man, by the way - a friend of Terry's who'd done a little aikido) shoved the jutte into his mouth and down his throat, smirking as he did so.

I was, at the end of the class, invited to join. I thought about it for a week, still fascinated because of Terry's stories and such, but the fundamental human disrespect for the other man really got to me. It was gratuitous; Hatsumi-san did it just because he could. (And anyone who tries to run some kind of "crazy wisdom" or "coyote teaching" rationalization is the kind of person I respect least - if your teacher is wrong or flawed, be a man and see it clear!) I was not alone in my distaste - Terry simply said to me, "He's not the same guy he used to be." So I respectfully wrote a letter declining the invitation.

I used to see Hatsumi-san and his group on variety shows on TV quite often thruout my stay in Japan. They'd do these little skits where the student, sometimes a non-Japanese would put on a really bad wig or rubber samurai hairdo, and pretend to be a priest or a musician and then do some techniques and the audience and Japanese Cathy Gifford and Regis Philbin would break into delighted applause. I'd usually see it while drinking beers with Japanese budo associates, and everyone would shake their heads, sip a beer and say, "Yup, there's Hatsumi-san." At that time, at least, they were doing something very far from the "aesthetic" of me or any of my associates, be they from judo, muay thai or koryu. (Look, for those who find this objectionable, feel free to have your own explanation - I'm just saying that it didn't leave a very favorable impression - doing dueling samurai-ninja skits on afternoon talk shows for the effete simpering hosts and their clapping audiences.)

In the 1980's, the Japan Martial Arts Society, of which I was a founding member, invited Tanemura-san to present a demo-seminar to the organization. He did a three hour presentation - he was a gentleman throughout, and really impressed me when, in the middle of the demo, he saw a couple of louts with their feet out on the tatami, leaning against the wall, and he said that if people who were members of a budo study group couldn't sit properly, he was taking his group and leaving. He was righteously furious, and they straightened up. Thus, I got to see a very detailed and diverse three hour demo, with explanations, of a number of weapons and techniques derived from, T-san said, a number of the Genbukan-associated ryu. None of it was something I wanted to do, or liked very much, but so what - the Takamatsu-den isn't a Jehovah's Witness type group that gets brownie points with God when they make a new convert, right?

Finally, a couple of years ago, I was very graciously hosted by Paul Richardson's Bujinkan group in England, and I spent a couple of days there. The members of the dojo were fine people, and I had a wonderful time. I was asked to show some of what I knew, and I did - Paul, I'm sure, could give his impression, positive or negative, from a Bujinkan perspective.

So what I know about things is this: I think that both Hatsumi-san and Tanemura-san are enormously physically talented men. Based on my personal experience, I disliked the former and liked the latter, because of the kind of men they showed themselves to be in my presence.

My opinion of the "Takamatsu-den" is that it is a composite of traditional knowledge and Hatsumi-san's (and his "successor's) creative innovations. Some, perhaps, has many generation lineage, some probably goes back no further than Takamatsu, another very creative man, and I think Hatsumi-san made up/improvised/altered a lot. The whole large organization(s) - Bu - Gen-Ji - teaching methodology, everything is "unkoryu," whatever it's roots might be. To me, it's like a griffon - head of a lion, body of a horse, and tail of a snake. As far as I'm concerned, that's cool - that's what i think it is.

But in sum, I could care less. I'm happy to meet anyone if/when I've got the time - hang out, tip a beer or even exchange a little knowledge. But as no ninja are apparently out to get me, no one's tried dojo yaburi on me in quite some time and they weren't from "the Booj," anyway, it makes no never mind to me what you all do. In fact, I'll make a promise. Ya got my opinion, for whatever it's worth. So other than any reply in this thread, if I need to, I'll never write about the Takamatsu-den again - I've got nothing more to say anyway. Because on a technical, organizational, historical level, you guys are as little a part of my life as the Mormons.

So that's the view from one koryucompoop (that sucks, by the way - someone's got to think of something that cuts a little deeper).

Respectfully

Ellis Amdur

Posted on: 2011/11/19 10:28
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: thoughts on Bujinkan from 1977
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/2/4 2:12
From Sacramento, CA (USA)
Group:
村民 :: Villager
村長 :: Admin
議長 :: Mod
Posts: 1024
Offline
Hmmm... So, this guy with other MA experience is invited to a few of Soke's classes, watches a demo with Tanemura-san, and attends Paul's class suddenly comes up with all sorts of conclusions about the authenticity of the Bujinkan ryuha and the character of Hatsumi Soke? No mention of actually going to Hatsumi Soke and talking to him about these things? Did he see the menkyo and makimono? What research did he do?

It reads to me like some snob who couldn't handle the kind of training he experienced with Soke, et al. He clearly showed his disdain for Hatsumi Soke and his preference for Tanemura-san. Whatever. That's his choice.

If he approached his research in such an overtly bias way (I believe he was bias even before meeting Hatsumi Soke), it's no wonder his experience was terrible. I wouldn't have given him the time of day either just from the vibes I would likely have gotten from him.

So, I'm only left wondering... Why post this obviously flawed, inaccurate and bias document here when it has already been posted on Budoseek and MAP? What are you hoping to see that hasn't been shown on those two forum sites?

Or is this troll bait?

Posted on: 2011/11/20 1:13
_________________
Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: thoughts on Bujinkan from 1977
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2007/5/5 18:02
From South East UK
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 221
Offline
Personally I would feel privileged to have Soke shove a jutte up my hooter, or any authentic iemoto for that matter.

Posted on: 2011/11/20 1:54
_________________
Stop, take a deep breath, and everybody say "Auuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmnnnnn".
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: thoughts on Bujinkan from 1977
Village Old Timer
Joined:
2004/8/3 11:03
Group:
村民 :: Villager
議長 :: Mod
Posts: 565
Offline
Ellis Amdur has a pretty good reputation in martial arts circles. That should be taken into consideration. Also, it's the internet, anyone can write anything they want. Credit goes to him for putting his name on it.

Posted on: 2011/11/20 11:51
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: thoughts on Bujinkan from 1977
Active Kutakian
Joined:
2004/1/11 8:45
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 131
Offline
Quote:

Darren wrote:
Hmmm... So, this guy with other MA experience is invited to a few of Soke's classes, watches a demo with Tanemura-san, and attends Paul's class suddenly comes up with all sorts of conclusions about the authenticity of the Bujinkan ryuha and the character of Hatsumi Soke? No mention of actually going to Hatsumi Soke and talking to him about these things? Did he see the menkyo and makimono? What research did he do?

It reads to me like some snob who couldn't handle the kind of training he experienced with Soke, et al. He clearly showed his disdain for Hatsumi Soke and his preference for Tanemura-san. Whatever. That's his choice.

If he approached his research in such an overtly bias way (I believe he was bias even before meeting Hatsumi Soke), it's no wonder his experience was terrible. I wouldn't have given him the time of day either just from the vibes I would likely have gotten from him.


while i can't remark on the ryuha authenticity part, i can remark on the "can't handle training" and "disdain" part. you're right it's his choice if he disdains someone who is unconcerned with others who train with him to the point that he disregards health practices concerning bodily fluids. you cannot say that he can't hack the training unless you know the man personally. but i can infer from his words that he was put off by hatsumi's lack of decency from his point of view.

Quote:

ElfTengu wrote:
Personally I would feel privileged to have Soke shove a jutte up my hooter, or any authentic iemoto for that matter.


if that same jutte was previously shoved up another person's rectum before, would you still feel the same?

Posted on: 2011/11/20 18:57
_________________
Griff Lockfield

"Don't ask me. I need time to practice rather than answering to it." - Harada Masanori

just playing the ONI's advocate!
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: thoughts on Bujinkan from 1977
Villager
Joined:
2003/6/30 18:16
From Stockholm, Sweden
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 64
Offline
I fail to find the original thread at budoseek. It would have been interesting to see the context. Anyone else has better luck? Someone else reposted the material at MAP. The style sure sounds like a work of Amdur's pen, though.

Posted on: 2011/11/20 19:11
_________________
Hanna Bjork

I might repeat to myself slowly and soothingly, a list of quotations beautiful from minds profound - if I can remember any of the damn things.
Dorothy Parker
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: thoughts on Bujinkan from 1977
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2007/5/5 18:02
From South East UK
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 221
Offline
Quote:

Lockfield wrote:


Quote:

ElfTengu wrote:
Personally I would feel privileged to have Soke shove a jutte up my hooter, or any authentic iemoto for that matter.


if that same jutte was previously shoved up another person's rectum before, would you still feel the same?


Well, I always say, "When in Rome........."

;)

Posted on: 2011/11/20 19:35
_________________
Stop, take a deep breath, and everybody say "Auuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmnnnnn".
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: thoughts on Bujinkan from 1977
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/2/2 4:53
From Dublin, Ireland
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 234
Offline
Look, it's quite juvenile to want everyone else everywhere to approve of your choices in life. Ellis Amdur has made his choice in regards to his budo career, and he seems pretty happy with them. Good for him. More people should be like that.

I don't know Mr Amdur, but as someone else has pointed out, he's pretty well regarded. This post is just his opinion, and he's 100 per cent entitled to it. It doesn't particularly ring true of my experience of Hatsumi Sensei, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It may have.

He may have had a bad day, or just let himself down. Hell, I know I've done that, and I like to think I'm a pretty stand up guy. If it did happen, then does it really mean that much?

He's not a saint, or a religious leader. It's not necessary for him to be either of those things - just a really good martial artist willing to share his teachings. For what it's worth, I have witnessed him going above and beyond the call of duty to be kind to people when there was no possible benefit to him in doing so. I also know people who have benefitted from his kindness and thoughfulness who have nothing to do with budo. So there you go.

So to the person who reposted this, I understand the concern, but does it actually effect you?

Because this smacks to me of that famous internet cartoon:

Click to see original Image in a new window

Posted on: 2011/11/20 22:00
_________________
Alex Meehan,
Dublin, Ireland
www.happobiken.com...
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: thoughts on Bujinkan from 1977
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/8/1 23:57
From Hamina, Finland
Group:
村民 :: Villager
議長 :: Mod
師導士会 :: Shidoshikai
Posts: 1682
Offline
If that incident played out as told... first impression mean quite a lot

Posted on: 2011/11/20 23:39
_________________
Ari Julku
Shidōshi
Bujinkan Ōari Dōjō
(Bujinkan Budōka since 1985)
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: thoughts on Bujinkan from 1977
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/2/4 2:12
From Sacramento, CA (USA)
Group:
村民 :: Villager
村長 :: Admin
議長 :: Mod
Posts: 1024
Offline
First let me say I don't mean to disrespect Mr. Amdur personally, as I don't know him. All I can judge is the writing, of which I have no idea how authentic this is either (we all know how writings can be edited, changed, etc, even when it goes to publication). We also don't know what thoughts or experiences Mr. Amdur may have had since that possibly changed his opinion to the better. Who knows.

What I do know is that this supposedly was written in 1977. Much (if not most) of the present day Bujinkan probably was either not born, still soiling their diapers, or otherwise too young to really know what martial arts were. The understanding Western world had of martial arts was pretty shallow, really. I'm sure Soke's manner was a shock to the conventional view of martial arts, which is the kind of thing that lured many to keep coming back (I'm thinking of Mr. Navon, Mr. Waxman, and the other early Western students).

Opinions matter and every person has the right. I'm not slamming anything regarding that. I'm merely questioning why this piece was even presented now, in 2011, in three different forums. So much more is out there on what Soke is doing NOW and presented in the context of today's understanding, not 34 years ago. I mean, really, is there any relevance?

Posted on: 2011/11/21 3:43
_________________
Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer



(1) 2 »




[Advanced Search]


Today's Sponsor