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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Thank you Darren. I always thought stances were rigid. My boxing stance never changed. It was used at all ranges. Im so used to never deviating from a chosen stance.

So your saying that they can be changed or adapted as the situation demands?

You mentioned that im searching for why this art appeals to me. Well at my first class, watching the seniors, and the instructor I saw something in there movement, the way the art presents it self that I liked.

My issue is that my MMA brain is questioning everything. "Are you sure that will work" or " Why does jodan uke move in such a large circle, wouldn't a smaller circle be better." Are the things I think to my self.

I guess im just looking for proof this stuff works.

Posted on: 2014/1/9 9:03
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Joshua Worman

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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Quote:

Kframe wrote:
Thank you Darren. I always thought stances were rigid. My boxing stance never changed. It was used at all ranges. Im so used to never deviating from a chosen stance.

So your saying that they can be changed or adapted as the situation demands?

You mentioned that im searching for why this art appeals to me. Well at my first class, watching the seniors, and the instructor I saw something in there movement, the way the art presents it self that I liked.

My issue is that my MMA brain is questioning everything. "Are you sure that will work" or " Why does jodan uke move in such a large circle, wouldn't a smaller circle be better." Are the things I think to my self.

I guess im just looking for proof this stuff works.


Nope. You are constantly changing position and kamae in combat. Remember that these techniques were not necessarily for one on one fighting, but of a "multi-threat" environment of battle. Keeping moving was one way to keep an opponent from fixing on you with a spear, sword, arrow, or whatever. Also, how you move in kamae can affect how your armor "floats", so that plates can still cover your vitals. Keep that in mind.

If I might suggest a video example, check out this demo video of Soke's Koto Ryu Koppojutsu DVD. Fast forward to about 1:08. These are Koto Ryu Kamae, but you'll see how Soke adjusts and moves around in kamae. That's my point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWARvKjOloU

As far as questioning the applicable nature of the training, that's important. But, the real question when wondering if this stuff "works" is actually in what context you are questioning it. Would it work in MMA? My opinion is no. MMA is a training style suited to achieve the goals of the MMA combatant, just like Judo is geared for the Judo tournament and archery is geared for putting an arrow in the center dot of a target. Not that those skills can't work on the street, given the right conditions, but they are narrow in scope in order to focus on the context of the individual sport they are from.

So, would your Bujinkan training work on the street? That would depend on several factors. It depends on your teacher's teaching method, teaching ability, knowledge of the material and, lastly, your own capacity, talent and "knack" for this art. No matter what others may say, I am a firm believer that it still is about the person, not the art. Eventually through training you'll discover how this art integrates into your own natural "you" and how you handle whatever situation you find yourself in. The skill sets are not that difficult, provided you are taught correctly and train correctly long enough to learn them. The real test then becomes whether YOU can adapt them to whatever the situation is. That's something outside the limits of dojo and academic study.

And, lots of luck.

Posted on: 2014/1/9 9:27
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Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Kframe,

I understand that the MMA-mindset is hard to shake off. Unfortunately you have entered a martial art that has Deep roots in the Koryu tradition. Progression in japanese martial arts follow a concept called "Shu-Ha-Ri" which means you first copy your master. Before you have to "empty your cup". A lot of things (and I really mean a lot) are done differently. Some things may take years of study Before you can begin to grasp. I recommend you read this interview: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=702

Mr Threadgill represents a different martial art but what he says is very interesting and holds true for the arts in the Bujinkan as well.

Regards / Skuggvarg

Btw, I had similar thoughts about Jodan Uke and there are reasons why it is done the way it is done. However, there are many ways of doing Jodan Uke, even with small circle or direct to the inside or outside of the attackers arm.

Posted on: 2014/1/9 20:12
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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I guess the hardest thing im having with this is, the thought of random resistance. How do you know you can apply the things learned in this art, randomly with ressitance? Not predetermined, but random resistance and random attacks?

Every other minor quibble I have can be dealt with in time with training and a good instructor, except the whole random thing. So far I have seen no practice by the black belts, of them defending or other wise dealing with random attacks, they don't know are coming. Is lack of randomness in training common? Google says so, but that doesn't mean anything.

Im just having a hard time accepting a art that dosent train against random, unscripted attacks with resistance. Which is annoying because I like the movements I have seen so far.

Posted on: 2014/1/11 9:32
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Joshua Worman

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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Quote:

Kframe wrote:
I guess the hardest thing im having with this is, the thought of random resistance. How do you know you can apply the things learned in this art, randomly with ressitance? Not predetermined, but random resistance and random attacks?

Every other minor quibble I have can be dealt with in time with training and a good instructor, except the whole random thing. So far I have seen no practice by the black belts, of them defending or other wise dealing with random attacks, they don't know are coming. Is lack of randomness in training common? Google says so, but that doesn't mean anything.

Im just having a hard time accepting a art that dosent train against random, unscripted attacks with resistance. Which is annoying because I like the movements I have seen so far.


I hear you. Training can't be all about flow and touchy shiatsu-jutsu dancing. At some point, if you want to reach into the realms of real violence, you have to simulate real violence - sudden, random, blitz attacks when you are vulnerable or "not ready". That's training methodology, which is an individual pursuit. What we are learning is an art, a form. What you choose to do with it is your responsibility and freedom to choose. This is what I meant about how people train for different reasons and their choices will support those reasons.

Find good training partners who you trust and add those elements you are asking about. Armor up and have someone 'randomly' attack you to test your ability to receive, block and move. Allow yourself to be blitz attacked, struck and even twisted up, slammed against a wall, over a desk, crammed into a tight place (like a bathroom stall), etc. But, don't lose sight of the bigger picture of your Bujinkan training - that you are learning skill sets which belong to a particular art and carry particular lessons. If your explorations and applications become your focus, you'll lose your connection to the lessons and won't learn anything, really. If, for instance, your Ichimonji no Kata receiving/blocking and countering shuto strike to their neck fails when someone really comes at you hard, don't just throw it away and go back to MMA reactions. Stop, take a look at where it failed, and you'll discover something is either missing or lacking in technical development. Drill on those areas, then try it again.

That's how I love to train and teach in my dojo and I enjoy it immensely.

Good luck!

Posted on: 2014/1/11 9:48
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Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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On the randomness of attacks and coping with them... skuggvard already talked about this below;

Quote:

skuggvarg wrote:
Kframe,

Progression in japanese martial arts follow a concept called "Shu-Ha-Ri" which means you first copy your master. Before you have to "empty your cup". A lot of things (and I really mean a lot) are done differently. Some things may take years of study Before you can begin to grasp. I recommend you read this interview: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=702


Ofcourse it depends on the teacher how this method is applied, but this is the way I have experienced it training in Japan, and with the European teachers I have had the priviledge of training with.

Keep on going!

Posted on: 2014/1/11 16:36
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Ari Julku
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Re: New student requesting some information.
Villager
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I understand that it will be a long while before I get to the various phases of training.. How ever, ignoring that I have prior training, assuming total martial newbie. Wont a total martial newbie, training this art, be at a disadvantage for self defense for a long time then if they are not getting resistant training from the beginning?

I plan on continuing, I have already put my sparring time in. Im more concerned with trying to apply a lock or throw(looking at what happened to Doug Wilson) against a resisting opponent.

I get the feeling that im missing some concept regarding the link of using the skills learned compliantly and using them under stress.

That interview was all over the place. Is there a specific section I need to read?

Posted on: 2014/1/12 4:09
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Joshua Worman

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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Most martial arts techniques (regardless of the system) are not meant to be applied against resistance. Like anything else in life, if you have have to force it, it is probably wrong. Combative sports (MMA) often work on the "over come" basis. Martial arts use openings, weak points in armor, defense, or balance to apply just enough energy in precicely the right way to achieve their goal. Otherwise, it makes as much sense as repeatedly running into a wall hard enough and long enough to make a door, when there is an open window right there.

The aspect of training you seem to be asking about, the application under stress, has less to do about making the tachniques work against direct resistance (forcing a joint lock when they are fighting it) and more to do about learning to find the weak points and exploit them under stress. The best way to do this is repeatly and slowly to teach your body to feel them. These arts have been around a long time. They way they are taught is tried and true. Trust in this and be patient.

Posted on: 2014/1/13 4:26
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K. Weaver
Bujinkan Katsujinken Dojo
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Quote:

kweaver wrote:
Most martial arts techniques (regardless of the system) are not meant to be applied against resistance. Like anything else in life, if you have have to force it, it is probably wrong. Combative sports (MMA) often work on the "over come" basis. Martial arts use openings, weak points in armor, defense, or balance to apply just enough energy in precicely the right way to achieve their goal. Otherwise, it makes as much sense as repeatedly running into a wall hard enough and long enough to make a door, when there is an open window right there.

The aspect of training you seem to be asking about, the application under stress, has less to do about making the tachniques work against direct resistance (forcing a joint lock when they are fighting it) and more to do about learning to find the weak points and exploit them under stress. The best way to do this is repeatly and slowly to teach your body to feel them. These arts have been around a long time. They way they are taught is tried and true. Trust in this and be patient.


I think you're mentioning the top level resulting from dedicated training over a ridiculously long period of time. This notion is fairly modern. Most practitioners of arts like this, using them during the period in time when they were most used, didn't have the luxury of training for a one in a million chance they had to use it. Instead, the had to trek out into the battlefield with whatever small amount of training they had. The strongest survived and, if lucky, got to refine technique long after their fighting days were done.

You're right, though. These arts have been around for a long time, but if you think they are being taught now like they were then you may be fooling yourself. The top level of Kukishin for example, has you perform certain techniques against random attacks forcing you to find a way to get that technique applied. I don't recall seeing that type of training recently

Posted on: 2014/1/13 10:52
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Re: New student requesting some information.
Villager
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This concept of Shu Ha ri. If ri is abandon the form, at what point do the high level mega dons stop using forms for their primary training?


Posted on: 2014/1/14 8:08
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Joshua Worman

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