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Re: Another Ninjutsu organization in South America?
Permanent Village Fixture
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Oari,

You supported my statement about the lack of proof about the Gyokko ryu. The evidence people have been using about reference to Gyokko Ryu in a 1843 article was wrong. They misinterpreted was been said in the book. That's all.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 17:33
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Re: Another Ninjutsu organization in South America?
Permanent Village Fixture
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Radarblip,

He is quite sad and bitter don't you think? Says a lot about his character.

侶武,

WOW, take a step back and look at what you are saying.

1. Post #46 shows my sources. Which include some Japanese books, one which Lockfield also used to make a point. One which you have never read and obviously knew nothing about. I have also people on this thread who has stated some of my claims are true. What other sources are there?

You are also saying Paul's book, Hatsumi's video, Koryu school website are lousy sources. Too funny. You have used one book source which I have shown has some flaws in it. No research was done on the schools history before being added to the book. They just put schools in the book.

2. You say everybody knew Takamatsu slicing and dicing Kukishin ryu and that's not the debate.(post #105) Did you and Mr. Roley know that when I was saying throughout the entire thread it was public knowledge. You both said I was wrong and show me proof and sources.

On top of that, you now agree he was slicing and dicing the verifiable schools(Kukishin, Takagi and Shinden) but you think he wouldn't do it with the questionable schools. The Kuki archives have also been claimed to have been edited by Takamatsu from the original he had. But he wouldn't do that not even to make the schools or possibly himself popular. Look at Lockfields' post again.

3. Now you are questioning the Japanese book written by a Japanese author you knew nothing about. Both I (post 46) and Lockfield both used reference to a book about the Kukishin lineage. Someone correct me if I am wrong but the author actually went to the Kuki archives and researched documents including these letters that were written by Takamatsu to the head of the Kuki family. A person who has a background in History, native born Japanese, read the letters for himself. Yet, you question his lack of understanding of Takamatsu's letters. But you do possibly understand, someone who knows nothing about the book. I may even go as far to say and I am stretching here, you may not trust Syd's translation of the book.

In that same book, some PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, there is also a reference to a letter where Takamtsu was asking for permission to create Kukishin Ninpo. Go back to point #2

You really think my argument is flawed?

Now instead of debating you want to get even and get me back once you get a computer and also ban me. Sad :(

I suggest asking Mr. Roley, apparently he knows almost everything and is quite patient with people like us.


Finally, the reason I have been complaining about the quote function is because without it. It becomes very difficult to win a debate. You can't go back an reference comments from other posters to support you point. No one wants to go back and look at all the posts. Especially ones as long as these. Without evidence it weakens your argument. Especially, since I am the only with this problem. Despite my drawing attention to it no one has done anything about it. The staff hasn't said it was glitch or that we are working on it. Which leads me to believe my assumption is true. It is unfortunate. Quite, S-H-A-D-Y actually. Oh, well perserverance. ;)

Posted on: 2009/4/25 18:25
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Re: Another Ninjutsu organization in South America?
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Jimmy,

You'll have to wait till Monday I'm not a computer right now and don't have the ability to cut and paste in order to quote all the bits you've talked about.

The sources we were asking for are those that you have made about gyokko ryu and the like being repackaged. Also lockfield didn't give a letter, it is a letter about a letter and it is not a letter of intent.

Paul's book is flawed and not a good source.
I said the YouTube video of the cover of the ito's book is lousy, and all websites are not primary sources.

Are you familiar with the term primary source.

But, you'll have to wait till Monday before I get to your argument.

There are than a few people on this board that have meet me, to know and judge my character.

How many have you met or know you?

PS. I know what I've said try reading it first.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 18:57
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Re: Another Ninjutsu organization in South America?
Village Old Timer
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jimmy

The quote function is a code.

[quote ] without the space starts a quote. [\quote ] without the space ends a quote.

[quote] see[\quote]

Posted on: 2009/4/25 19:07
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Re: Another Ninjutsu organization in South America?
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Obviously with a lack of information emotion is necessary to fill in the gaps.

The arguments regarding fabrication seem to revolve around Takamatsu-sensei quite openly creating new things based on previous experience. Saying you are going to create something new is very different than creating something new and claiming it is ancient.

When he was with the Kukishin project this was his school and he was combining all his knowledge into it. When he moved out on his own he was less restricted.

Just saying he wanted to add karate to make Kukishin jujutsu more popular doesn't explain his hands which were the product of more than a passing interest in the sort of training to make what he did more popular.

He didn't write a book or charge his students for lessons but he hand wrote volumes of material to pass onto Hatsumi-sensei. A lot of work.

He did create new things and rejig old things but seemed to be quite open about those.

I believe his claims and enjoying my training in the Bujinkan. I have seen quite a few of these threads but nothing really that disproves any claims - just highlight a lack of independent information.

It's all just another worthless internet conspiracy in my opinion.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 19:22
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Re: Another Ninjutsu organization in South America?
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I am afraid that I feel very cynical reading this thread.

I can't help but feel those who look at Soke and doubt his legitimacy as a bunch of conspiracy theorists, looking for black helicopters.

Then I read those who look at "official historical" listings of Koru and Japan as the "Word of God" much the same as those who literally interpret the Bible. What self respecting Ninja would document his actions for the rest of Japan to see. Besides, the Japanese would never alter official records to avoid shame or inconvient truths! (would they)

In the long run I just don't care. I would still train in the Bujinkan if I went back in time and found that Soke got it all from some bum in an alley - like the buddha palm book on "Kung Foo Hustle". I like it, it works, the people are great!

You guys really do sound like Dan Akroid and Jane Curtain on point - counterpoint. You ignorant sluts! I don't see any benefit in addressing the Kool Aid fearing world, they tend to be the thirsty ones anyway!

Marty

Posted on: 2009/4/25 19:46
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Re: Another Ninjutsu organization in South America?
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Put me with Duncan and Marty! At this point I continue to train because I know this works, I know it adapts as it needs to for whatever situation I find myself in. I really don't care if Takematsu sama did "slicing and dicing" or if Hatsumi Sensei then changed things or didn't. I do care that what we are being shown works --- if you pay attention and listen with an open mind and heart. The value of anything becomes clear when it is put into practice. If one doesn't think it will work for them go elsewhere and accept the choice.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 22:33
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Re: Another Ninjutsu organization in South America?
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Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
You supported my statement about the lack of proof about the Gyokko ryu. The evidence people have been using about reference to Gyokko Ryu in a 1843 article was wrong. They misinterpreted was been said in the book. That's all.

Ok... yes, it can be seen that way... But the only thing I did was quote the internet, not having seen the book, the periodical etc. so that cannot be counted - im my book - as providing... what... proof, or confirmation on the matter. I don't see "asking a question" being "providing support"...

If, though, you had read the passages on the net pages in a manner that you feel was perhaps misleading you, and my questioning of what might have been meant cleared the issue for you (we haven't had anyone who has real knowledge about the things being quoted speaking up and saying which way it actually is, BTW, or have we?), then by all means you are welcome.

But, please, don't put words to my keyboard, thank you.

Posted on: 2009/4/25 22:44
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Ari Julku
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Re: Another Ninjutsu organization in South America?
Active Kutakian
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2005/1/27 15:14
From Winterpeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:

侶武 wrote:
Why not?


I see no reason to close the thread. Does the thread/topic break TOS for Kutaki or the 'Soapbox'?

The focus may have drifted however there is nothing wrong with the topic nor the way it is being discussed (IMO). Given the sensitivity of the topic (for some) I think this discussion has remained civil enough.

I definitely think an 'IP ban' would be excessive. I am glad you are not a moderator on the forum.

We have two moderators participating in the thread. Others are probably watching it. Kudos to them for letting it run its course.



jwills79,

Quote:
He is quite sad and bitter don't you think? Says a lot about his character.


I would not go so far as 'sad and bitter.' He is as passionate about his perspective on the topic as you are.



Marty, you pompous ass!

Classic SNL. Thanks for the chuckle.

There are many times when I read your posts and think to myself "When I finally meet this man I am going to buy him a beer." I sure hope you like beer. There are plenty waiting for you!

Posted on: 2009/4/25 23:20
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Re: Another Ninjutsu organization in South America?
Village Old Timer
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Adam,

I am a moderator on the forum. :) just not the soapbox.

Posted on: 2009/4/26 2:12
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