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Re: The fact is that....
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Joji San thank you again for your help!!!

I will be in Japan sometime soon so I will be sure to try to bring this up while I am there. 3 kids make life real busy.

Mr. Peter Carlsson,

I do not mean to come across as rude but you are mistaken on the 1969 edition of the "Bugei Ryu Ha Dai Ji Ten"

The 1969 edition says that Toda Shinryuken (Ishinsai) died in 1880 (明治十三年) at the age of 73.
Then it says that Takamatsu Sensei was born 4 years later. This puts us to 1884 but I believe Takamatsu Sensei was born March 10, 1887 and he claims to have received his menkyo kaiden from Toda Sensei at 22 tears old. This does not add up.

This edition is also where we find Ishitani (Ishiya) Takeo listed as a menkyo kaiden in Togakure Ryu in a separate lineage from the Toda family.

My question is did Takamatsu Sensei learn the art from other living clan members such as Ishitani Sensei and become Soke of the Toda-Den Togakure Ryu by birthright?

Manaka Sensei has eluded to this as being the case in our conversations together. But Hatsumi Soke insists that Takamatsu Sensei studied with his Grandfather.

I am still looking for any historical source that lists Toda Sensei's name to prove he ever existed.

Trust me if there is anyone who is in "the know" I do feel confident it is me. If you doubt my research please go to Soke directly. When I graduated from Sophia University my thesis paper for graduation was on the history of our Ryu Ha which I coined the term "Momochi-Den". My research included several hours of recorded conversations with Soke and many photo copies of documents in Takamatsu Sensei's own hand.

The 1969 edition also clearly states at the beginning of the paragraph that the information was published in a Ninjutsu Doumentary book by Takamatsu Sensei himself. Regrettably it does not list the name of this Ninjutsu book.

Anyway I still say I can feel the truth in the taijutsu but it would be nice to be able to research the Ninpo history a little more clearly.


Sean Askew
Bujinkan Kokusai Renkoumyo
www.onimenkai.org


Posted on: 2005/7/10 4:24
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Re: The fact is that....
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Quote:

SeanAskew wrote:
Joji San thank you again for your help!!!


You are welcome!

Quote:

I will be in Japan sometime soon so I will be sure to try to bring this up while I am there. 3 kids make life real busy.


That's nice. You can ask various questions and update yourself.
Tell me when you are coming.

Three kids!

Posted on: 2005/7/10 7:37
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Re: The fact is that....
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Quote:

SeanAskew wrote:

Mr. Peter Carlsson,

I do not mean to come across as rude but you are mistaken on the 1969 edition of the "Bugei Ryu Ha Dai Ji Ten"

The 1969 edition says that Toda Shinryuken (Ishinsai) died in 1880 (明治十三年) at the age of 73.
Then it says that Takamatsu Sensei was born 4 years later. This puts us to 1884 but I believe Takamatsu Sensei was born March 10, 1887 and he claims to have received his menkyo kaiden from Toda Sensei at 22 tears old. This does not add up.


No problem, I stand corrected on the dates.

The translation I have seems to have mixed up ju-san with san-ju. when it comes to the number of years. What I tried to put across was that according to what I have seen of Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, 1969 year edition stated that Toda died before Takamatsu was born. In the 1978 year edition, this has been changed to that he died in meiji 40 or 41 (seems to be different for Gyokko and Togakure ryu), but at least a number of years after Takamatsu was born, so there at least was a possibility that Takamatsu actually trained with Toda. But, also, some people claim that when it comes to that kind of data, the 1969 year edition is more correct, because in the later version, Watatani had lost some of the control and figures were changed to comply with the claims of different grandmasters. If this is accurate or not, I'm not the person to tell.

Best regards

Peter Carlsson
Malmö Taijutsuklubb - Bujinkan Dojo
Sweden

Posted on: 2005/7/10 8:27
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Re: The fact is that....
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Hi Sean

can you list the page number please for the 1969 edition.

I have looked in the 1978 edition at the togakure ryu lineage and it does have Ishitani's name in it but it does not have it connected at all to Toda. it is attached to line that comes from prior to Toagkure Daisuke.

If the 78 edition is correct then the two lines existed indepenadnt of each other prior to Daisuke being born therefore there is no connection.

if you have a page please supply so I can have a look my self


thanks

Posted on: 2005/7/10 18:20
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Re: The fact is that....
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Quote:

SeanAskew wrote:

This edition is also where we find Ishitani (Ishiya) Takeo listed as a menkyo kaiden in Togakure Ryu in a separate lineage from the Toda family.

Sean Askew
Bujinkan Kokusai Renkoumyo
www.onimenkai.org



Hi Sean

can you please prove proof Toda gave Ishitani sensei menkyo Kaiden in Togakure Ryu. I have not been able to find the proof.

can you please post hear a page number and also as you read japanese maybe a translation of the text.

better still if you have the book could you scan it and post it on your site so we can look at it for ourselves.

I only have the 1978 edition of the Daijiten adn its not in there

thanks

Posted on: 2005/7/16 5:28
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Re: The fact is that....
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Steve,

The book only shows that there is a seperate lineage. It does not show that Toda Sensei gave Ishitani Sensei a menkyo kaiden.

The book only lists the Soke line and Menkyo Kaiden lines (Shihan - Ke). So this means Ishitani had at least a Menkyo Kaiden or he was a Soke of his own Togakure Ryu lineage.
It is my own guess that Toda Sensei may have given the menkyo to Ishitani Sensei. We can not tell unless the name before Ishitani Takeo Sensei is listed. Sadly the book skips several generations before listing him.

If you send me an e-mail to BKRNINPO@AOL.COM I will respond and send you the page along with a translation. I do not want to put it up on the net due to copyright issues.


Best Regards,


Sean Askew
Bujinkan Kokusai Renkoumyo
www.onimenkai.org


Posted on: 2005/7/16 6:21
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Re: The fact is that....
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Quote:

SeanAskew wrote:
The book only shows that there is a seperate lineage. It does not show that Toda Sensei gave Ishitani Sensei a menkyo kaiden.

It is my own guess that Toda Sensei may have given the menkyo to Ishitani Sensei. We can not tell unless the name before Ishitani Takeo Sensei is listed. Sadly the book skips several generations before listing him.


I have seen somewhere that Toda Eisaburo Nobumasa's 戸田英三郎信 (24th soke Togakure ryu) gave menkyo kaiden to his son-in-law, who was Ohkuni Izumo Mori Shigehiro 大国出雲守重広 from Kukishin ryu (probably from the shihan-ke line). Don't remember the source at the moment, but that's what I have in my personal notes.

Still noone other that heard about Togakure ryu jujutsu???

Best regards

Peter Carlsson
Malmö Taijutsuklubb - Bujinkan Dojo
Sweden

Posted on: 2005/7/16 17:29
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Re: The fact is that....
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Quote:

Peter_Carlsson wrote:
I have seen somewhere that Toda Eisaburo Nobumasa's 戸田英三郎信 (24th soke Togakure ryu) gave menkyo kaiden to his son-in-law, who was Ohkuni Izumo Mori Shigehiro 大国出雲守重広 from Kukishin ryu (probably from the shihan-ke line). Don't remember the source at the moment, but that's what I have in my personal notes.


Hi Peter

thats is written in Sengoku Ninpo Zukan


Posted on: 2005/7/16 18:41
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Re: The fact is that....
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I was looking in Hatsumi sensei's book "The Way of the Ninja" earlier on and found this paragraph in passing. Although it doesn't mention Bikenshin Ryu, it does have some of the details we've been talking about on this thread. Taken from page 27.

Quote:
Takamatsu sensei's own teacher, Toda Shinryuken - the 32nd grandmaster of Togakure Ryu Ninpo - taught Budo as chief instructor at a martial academy in Kyoto and enjoyed an excellent reputation. He was asked to do this by Matsudaira Noriyasu (1794-1870), one of the Shogunate's senior councillors. However, political changes meant that Matsudaira Noriyasu lost his position, and Toda Shinryuken immediately left the academy, travelling around the Kinki area, keeping his whereabouts hidden. He never again took up an official post.


As for places where "Bikenshin Ryu" itself is mentioned, I've only found the one. If you look in "Ninja Secrets from the Grandmaster" by Hatsumi/Hayes, on page 98 of the original version (not sure about the recent reprint as I don't have it but it's in the chapter "Bonds & Hardships"), you'll find the following in a section of Hatsumi sensei's speech.

Quote:
Soke Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda was a great teacher, a great swordsman, a master of the Bikenshin Ryu sword method. He was a chief instructor for the official Tokugawa government sword school in Kyoto in the middle 1800s. When Iianosuke was appointed to the position of karo (advisor to the shogun), Shinryuken suddenly resigned from his position as sword instructor. He could forsee the political difficulties that lay ahead in Japan's immediate future, based on the appointment of Iianosuke, and he felt that it would be improper to supply his techniques to any one group of people who would only end up using them to kill or be killed for the sake of Japanese internal politics.

He did not want to provide the means for one Japanese to kill another Japanese in battle. Therefore he simply resigned as chief instructor of the government's sword school. The official historical records for the Kinki Chiho region simply note that he quit his position, but do not state any details as to why. I know the story, and can understand his feelings and motivations for making the choice he did.


Posted on: 2005/7/26 10:03
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Re: The fact is that....
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Quote:

MWDAndy wrote:

As for places where "Bikenshin Ryu" itself is mentioned, I've only found the one. If you look in "Ninja Secrets from the Grandmaster" by Hatsumi/Hayes, on page 98 of the original version (not sure about the recent reprint as I don't have it but it's in the chapter "Bonds & Hardships"), you'll find the following in a section of Hatsumi sensei's speech.


As we already discussed about this, it might be mistranslation.

"...戸田真龍軒は秘剣真龍軒と呼ばれていた..."

"Toda Shinryuken had been called BIKEN SHINRYUKEN, a man of Biken Jyutsu."

BIKEN SHINRYUKEN ... BIKEN SHIN RYU KEN ... BIKENSHIN RYU KEN

BIKENSHN RYU seems to be one of the school's name, but it sounds curious for us Japanese.

I hope there is no mistranslation like TODASHIN RYU kenjyutsu

Posted on: 2005/7/26 12:28
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