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Re: A nice account of wisdom
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"I give up, I have no idea where you guys are coming up with stuff."

This type of story is used by pretty much every culture to pass along "wisdom"
Its a simple allusion.
"clean" water before he died in it, I didn't realized he checked first."
He didn't check first, thats the point. As for the relationship, imagine meeting Jessica simpson in a bar in Las Vegas. You are drunk and "fall" in love. You go to the local wedding chapel get hitched. The next day you discover you are married to a beautiful woman, and then she opens her mouth..And you are in hell..Simply put, she looked like a cool pool of water, but is too "shallow"..etc...
Simple really..
Let your mind go luke...try being creative, expand your consciousness to see what is right before you.
It really is no different then the long winded, long word discriptions of philosophy used in other posts,except it is easier to interpret/understand. Just like in poetry, creative writing, abstract art, music, dance, and martial arts, you can use one image to portray multiple ideas and lessons.
Its a very common method. I would have expected you too be able to "see" it right away.
to put it even more simply...
"look before you leap.."

Posted on: 2007/5/21 14:38
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David Fletcher
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Re: A nice account of wisdom
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"And one quick comment, You both talk about looking deeper; but, if you didn't like the answers would you believe it, instead of what you want or wanted to believe?"

The point of injecting this story into this thread was precisely to see what kind of answers you came up with. You didn't come up with any so far, you didn't like Ed's, but you didn't offer up your interpretation in its place. The one about illusion wasn't what I was after, but it was right just the same.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 14:45
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David Fletcher
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Re: A nice account of wisdom
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Ok ok ok!

Quote:
This type of story is used by pretty much every culture to pass along "wisdom"



I disagreed with what you try to pull out of the story not the story itself.


Quote:
He didn't check first, thats the point. As for the relationship, imagine meeting Jessica simpson in a bar in Las Vegas. You are drunk and "fall" in love. You go to the local wedding chapel get hitched. The next day you discover you are married to a beautiful woman, and then she opens her mouth..And you are in hell..Simply put, she looked like a cool pool of water, but is too "shallow"..etc...
Simple really..



Again I understand what you are trying to say, I just simply don't agree with how you got there with the story.
Secondly, the story you gave us did not provide us whether or not the pool of water was clean, you both read into it that it was, hence you assumed it was...

Also I don't look at women as cool pools of water that I want to take a dip in... Perhaps that is a cultural thing, I don't know. You are really streching with your interptation.

This is how it sounds to me please follow the logic.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is arround does it make a noise? Oh the tree is a screaming kid and the forest is mass of cars on a free-way, and falling is really the industrial complex, and the noise are the politicians arguing over green house gases.

It is an interptation, just not remotely related to the story, it is ad hoc.

Quote:
Let your mind go luke...try being creative, expand your consciousness to see what is right before you.
It really is no different then the long winded, long word discriptions of philosophy used in other posts,except it is easier to interpret/understand. Just like in poetry, creative writing, abstract art, music, dance, and martial arts, you can use one image to portray multiple ideas and lessons.
Its a very common method. I would have expected you too be able to "see" it right away.
to put it even more simply...
"look before you leap.."


The story was about "look before you leap", however, you never made yourself clear how all of it was related based on the story. You tied it in to some strange interpretation. If all you were trying to say was simple look before you leap, I would have understood straight away.

P.S. Just becase something is easier doesn't make it better or right.

Again I understood you points I just could not find where you were justified in making the interpretation.

Quote:
The point of injecting this story into this thread was precisely to see what kind of answers you came up with. You didn't come up with any so far, you didn't like Ed's, but you didn't offer up your interpretation in its place. The one about illusion wasn't what I was after, but it was right just the same.


The stories are easily understood, there is no need to making them more complicated, with all the extra stuff attached to them out of left field. You both made good points it just does not follow (logically) from what was given in the story.

If you continue to look deeper you might find that the stories simply are simple and not "deep" and are just as shallow as your pool of water. But, if you discovered this or if you were led to believe this, would you ignore it and continue to believe what you want dispite the evidence?

I never said I didn't like Ed's point, I just think he has no justification in making it from the story. I like his point, it just does not follow from the story.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 16:08
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Re: A nice account of wisdom
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Is unclean water refreshing?

"If you continue to look deeper you might find that the stories simply are simple and not "deep" and are just as shallow as your pool of water. But, if you discovered this or if you were led to believe this, would you ignore it and continue to believe what you want dispite the evidence?"
This is a useful line of thought.

Haven't you ever heard the term "cool drink of water" as applied to nice looking female?
don't you find beauty refreshing?
The symbolism isn't ad hoc or random, as in your tree example.
If I said, look before you leap, that would just be boring and nothing to talk about. Why not just call onikudaki break the dudes shoulder..demon crusher is much more interesting don't you think?
Don't you get anything out of movies, books, or art other than the obvious story plot? Even the stories about socrates have meanings other than what they directly say.
Is the 5th dan test just dodging a sword or is it something else?

Posted on: 2007/5/21 19:08
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Re: A nice account of wisdom
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Rob, you asked "who's lifestyle", well EVERYONE'S lifestyle is dependant on what other people do and contribute. If you want to check the truth of that statement we can carry out an experiment which since you do like the scientific approach, would I believe prove the point. Put any person in a place away from ALL humans and also take from them EVERYTHING that was made by another human and then see what quality of life they maintained. In most cases they would not survive the first night, but even very skilled survival experts would spend all their time just staying alive.
I do agree that stories have been used in all cultures to pass on the values of that culture to the next generations. It seems to just express the point, like one must be courteous, is not the way to have it remembered. The "story" is a way to insure that the lesson remains with the person. Those of you who have heard the "feather" story I tell know that you always remember the lesson it teaches.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 21:57
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Re: A nice account of wisdom
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Quote:

鬼 wrote:
I don't even know where to begin... But, I am confused how a simple story has lead to you pulling all this "stuff" out.

I am not saying you both haven't made good points, I just don't think the oasis story has all this extra stuff in it.

I think this might be a case of reading to much into a story, or a type of projection of what one was thinking about at the time, and doesn't have anything to do with the story at all.


Hmmm ... this is like offering someone an apple and asking them to bite it and then describe it. Someone will just say it tasted sweet or crunchy. But others will go on to say it made them feel refreshed, lighter, more energetic, happy or even alive. Just because others got more out of tasting the apple are they wrong for doing so? Is their interpretation of the apple more correct than anothers? Someone could easily turn around and say, 'but an apple doesn't have "energetic", "happy" and "alive" in it, its just citric juices etc.' Are they reading too much into it or are they just getting more out of the experience? The beauty of stories and metaphor is that they mean different things to different people and people can relate it to different experiences of their own lives. If people are able to gleen more out of a story and apply it in meaningful ways to their lives, isn't that a good thing?

I dare say where they are pulling this "stuff" from is their own experience of life, which is telling you about their psyche and the nature of man and mind in and of itself. How much of the apple one is prepared to chew will determine how much one gets out of this.

Now, consider for a moment that you are socrates charged with the puzzle by the oracle as being the wisest man, and this dialogue (this one right now) is your interview with the many craftsman, and politians of the town. What are you discovering about wisdom?

Go on ... take another bite!

Posted on: 2007/5/22 0:17
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Re: A nice account of wisdom
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Quote:
Rob, you asked "who's lifestyle", well EVERYONE'S lifestyle is dependant on what other people do and contribute.


Sometimes it is hard to figure out what someone means by "our". I thought you might have meant it as an all inclusive term but, you never can be sure. I agree with you for the most part on what you have said so far.

I am just wondering if are you justified in making these claims based on the oasis story...

Quote:
Hmmm ... this is like offering someone an apple and asking them to bite it and then describe it. Someone will just say it tasted sweet or crunchy. But others will go on to say it made them feel refreshed, lighter, more energetic, happy or even alive. Just because others got more out of tasting the apple are they wrong for doing so?


Yes, if they attribute tastes that are not possible or strange (non-normative). What if someone tasted your apple and said they tasted yellow? Or if they tasted an idea, or b flat.
Their experiences in these circumstances are strange and have no meaning, if we decided to believe them in the first place but, we don't believe these people for the most part.

Quote:
The beauty of stories and metaphor is that they mean different things to different people and people can relate it to different experiences of their own lives. If people are able to gleen more out of a story and apply it in meaningful ways to their lives, isn't that a good thing?



Yes, if it is meaningful. If I see a tree and think about a tree, but I trail off and watch a bird, I shouldn't be saying that the tree was a reason for thinking about the bird.


Quote:
I dare say where they are pulling this "stuff" from is their own experience of life, which is telling you about their psyche and the nature of man and mind in and of itself. How much of the apple one is prepared to chew will determine how much one gets out of this.


This is what scares me... The problem is they think they are chewing on your apple but are actually chewing on something entirely different.

Quote:
Now, consider for a moment that you are socrates charged with the puzzle by the oracle as being the wisest man, and this dialogue (this one right now) is your interview with the many craftsman, and politians of the town. What are you discovering about wisdom?





Quote:
Haven't you ever heard the term "cool drink of water" as applied to nice looking female?
don't you find beauty refreshing?


I haven't heard the term... And, yes beauty I suppose can be refreshing.

Quote:

The symbolism isn't ad hoc or random, as in your tree example.
If I said, look before you leap, that would just be boring and nothing to talk about. Why not just call onikudaki break the dudes shoulder..demon crusher is much more interesting don't you think?


There is a difference between the names and actual actions. And, please don't tell me that you do Chi no Kata with the feeling of the Earth. Names are not in the same class of objects as stories.

Quote:

Don't you get anything out of movies, books, or art other than the obvious story plot? Even the stories about socrates have meanings other than what they directly say.
Is the 5th dan test just dodging a sword or is it something else?


If you are going to interpret something there should be at least a somewhat justifiable causal connection between the interpretation and the object being interpreted.

The oasis story only had this, a man was walking through the desert and sees an oasis, in his haste to relieve himself from the heat he jumps into a pond and breaks his neck. And, basically it says look before you leap...
Ok fine!
But, I see both your points, they ARE GOOD ONES, I am just not sure they are justified based on the story.

It seems to me you are using one story to justify another story.

It seems like (not quite but close) is doing the following:

An apple a day keeps the doctor away, because you can kill two birds with one stone, and a rolling stone gathers no moss "Nic knak Patty Whack Give a Dog a Bone".

But, your points are very good, I kind of understand how you make them, I am just not sure if they can be linked to the story directly as is. But, you could change the story a bit to make it fit.

But, this is the real nature of doing philosophy - an exchange back and forth (but without the jargon) between ideas, while trying to determine what is plausible (reasonable) and what is not.

Posted on: 2007/5/22 11:39
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Re: A nice account of wisdom
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Quote:

鬼 wrote:
I don't even know where to begin... But, I am confused how a simple story has lead to you pulling all this "stuff" out.


Oh, trust me, it seems to happen pretty easily.

Sometimes a piece of writing, especially if it suggests that there may be something below the surface and encourages readers to look deeper, can become a sort of verbal analogue to a Rorshach inkblot.

Posted on: 2007/5/22 12:20
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Re: A nice account of wisdom
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Quote:

dseago wrote:
Quote:

鬼 wrote:
I don't even know where to begin... But, I am confused how a simple story has lead to you pulling all this "stuff" out.


Oh, trust me, it seems to happen pretty easily.

Sometimes a piece of writing, especially if it suggests that there may be something below the surface and encourages readers to look deeper, can become a sort of verbal analogue to a Rorshach inkblot.




Here is something else everyone has been talking about to in some sort of way shape or form.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/life-meaning/

This types of things are central to philosophy but sometimes I forget about them. They are generally easier to talk about as well without extra jargon.

One question from a gadfly, How does Budo fit into, a meaningful life and the pursuit of knowledge, wisdom, and the like?

Posted on: 2007/5/22 12:39
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Re: A nice account of wisdom
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"And, please don't tell me that you do Chi no Kata with the feeling of the Earth."

You don't?...LOL
Do you do chi no kata with different falvours? ( oh wait, you don't eat chi no kata so how can you taste it?)
Don't you change the feeling of the technique? Do you do the same chi no kata in different ways?

"Names are not in the same class of objects as stories."

then what are names? they are mini stories...Hasn't anybody asked what your name means? There are books on names and their meanings. They do tell a story. The same as the names for the kata in the Bujinkan. They didn't just write a bunch of random words, put them in a ninja bag and randomly select names that sounded cool..(or did they?)

People only see what they choose to see. The repsonses tell a definate story of each responders personality, just as a persons taijutsu changes with a person's personality.
I viewed the story from a first person perspective, I only thought about the guy. Ed on the other hand, looked completely past the guy and too how his lack of wisdom affected the environment and possibly other individuals. You don't see anything at all. Its all representatve of who we are, where we are at, and so on.
good link, by the way.

Posted on: 2007/5/22 18:54
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