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Re: the essence of something
Cant Stay Offline
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Papa-san wrote:
The point I make is that our art which comes from many other sources was always proven though real experience. They, the ninja, took ANYTHING that they could effectively use.


Ah, this was also pointed to me in another discussion - if it's Ninja's we're talking about, in historical sense, then I'm sure it's bang on. Heck, when it's any furvival, fight for one's life one will surely use whatever one can.

So, I must be looking at this from wrong perspective. Well, as I said, I haven't had to fight for my life.

Although, adding to the school's syllabus... I'm sure it's not my place to do it; isn't that the Sôke's responsibilty and priviledge?

EDIT typo

Posted on: 2007/11/2 7:58
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Re: the essence of something
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Quote:

TenChiJin Guy wrote:
Quote:

JeffMueller wrote:
Defining "works" is very difficult.


Actually - it is impossible. Nothing works everytime. And plenty of complete manure works sometimes...



That brings us back to the conversation of high percentage, low percentage techniques IMO.

A spinning outside crescent kick may work for someone sometime.
Its not an optimal choice based on its low percentage qualities.

Perhaps Mr Martin is just arguing for high percentage techniques.

Posted on: 2007/11/2 8:40
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Re: the essence of something
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Just to throw in some play time here:

I wonder if it would be 'better' said as "anything which works is ninjutsu" and "anything which comes from Soke Hatsumi is Bujinkan".

Assuming, of course, by "ninjutsu" you are talking about whatever you have to use to survive - and you live to tell about it (i.e. it works).

So, maybe not EVERYTHING is Bujinkan, regardless if it works or not? But, ANYTHING could be ninjutsu, if it enables one to adapt and survive, yes?

At the essence of it all, does it really matter? You can tell easily if something is Bujinkan by simply considering the source. To tell if it's the other must first involve a level of trust - then personal experience. For me, I'd much rather just be happy with the trust and not need to risk my own life just to prove if something "works". Nothing is ever fool proof and even the best budoka in the world can be killed in an instant - by so many things and circumstances.

Better to just train in whatever you enjoy and be happy.

But, that's just me...

Posted on: 2007/11/2 10:16
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Re: the essence of something
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
I get confused on that too Samuel, the "that's not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" thing. My response from Dr Hatsumi was that ANYTHING that works is Bujinkan. That is the test, does it work!


Quote:

TenChiJin Guy wrote:
Soke's statement is rope. Find a tree and make a noose if you want. I will just coil it up and put it in my bag....


I doubt Hatsumi-sensei made the statement in order to give Ed enough rope to hang himself with.

Ed was made one of the original 15th dans by Hatsumi-sensei. I have also seen Ed and soke interact together and acted as interpreter as well has listening to soke talk about Ed while he wasn't present. My point is despite Daniel's own dislike and/or fundamental disagreement with his ideas that I for one can at least bear witness to the fact that Hatsumi-sensei holds him in very high regard.

My point is that I doubt that Hatsumi-sensei would tell him something just to trick him or test him. I have often heard people say that something Hatsumi-sensei has said was just to give them enough rope to hang themselves with but I tend to think people say this because they don't want to acknowledge something Hatsumi-sensei says or does that flies in the face of their own opinion.

I believe the statement was made because it is pretty consistent (and in some cases the same) as many other statements soke has made.

So assuming now that Hatsumi-sensei said it - and was sincere - is it time for people to show their hand?

Has Hatsumi-sensei gone off the rails and departed from "the basic precepts of that the Bujinkan arts are founded on" ??

The original question was "What constitutes Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" - is the reality of this that it is just a mishmash of Hatsumi Ryu that has departed from "the basic precepts of that the Bujinkan arts are founded on" which it the kata of the nine schools?

What is Hatsumi-sensei teaching in his classes? The essence of Budo Taijutsu which we should be practicing, some high level - like Ri from "Shu Ha Ri" or is he now just "an old man pottering around his shed" ??

Is the top level of the Bujinkan populated by people who understand Budo Taijutsu or mediocrity? If so what is Hatsumi-sensei's reasoning?

Is the essence in Hatsumi-sensei's kuden or the densho?

Is Hatsumi-sensei the reason you're in the Bujinkan or do you just view him as an eccentric annoyance in your study with a shihan who teaches the correct kata and the two standard henka?

I'm just trying to call out the real agenda's and base opinions of a few of the members here - a couple in particular. I just view an undercurrent that is being used to shout down other opinions while not being completely honest regarding their own. I'm not holding my breath in expecting honesty though.

Is it time to put your cards on the table?

Posted on: 2007/11/2 10:29
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Re: the essence of something
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Duncan, here is my take,

Quote:
I doubt Hatsumi-sensei made the statement in order to give Ed enough rope to hang himself with.


Of course not, but one has to think carefully about what Sensei says and in what context.

Quote:
Has Hatsumi-sensei gone off the rails and departed from "the basic precepts of that the Bujinkan arts are founded on" ??


Absolutly not, If anything is true is that Sensei always been true to teachings of the art and his teacher.

Quote:
The original question was "What constitutes Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" - is the reality of this that it is just a mishmash of Hatsumi Ryu that has departed from "the basic precepts of that the Bujinkan arts are founded on" which it the kata of the nine schools?


No, but we can't skip the Shu and Ha stage. Duncan you've been to Japan enough times to see what the Junior Shihan's are teaching right? They, like many other people understand that what is being taught today can only be comprehended by mastering the basics.

Quote:
What is Hatsumi-sensei teaching in his classes? The essence of Budo Taijutsu which we should be practicing, some high level - like Ri from "Shu Ha Ri" or is he now just "an old man pottering around his shed" ??


In my opnion Sensei is beyond the Ri stage, we are very fortunate to be able to experience such a high level directly from him, but some people are not.

Quote:
Is the essence in Hatsumi-sensei's kuden or the densho?


Kuden

Quote:
Is Hatsumi-sensei the reason you're in the Bujinkan or do you just view him as an eccentric annoyance in your study with a shihan who teaches the correct kata and the two standard henka?


For me, its Sensei

Posted on: 2007/11/2 13:06
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Re: the essence of something
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Okay, I will bite.

Quote:

Zenigata wrote:

I doubt Hatsumi-sensei made the statement in order to give Ed enough rope to hang himself with.


I don't.

Quote:
Ed was made one of the original 15th dans by Hatsumi-sensei.


Hate to say it, but that means nothing really...

Quote:
I have also seen Ed and soke interact together and acted as interpreter as well has listening to soke talk about Ed while he wasn't present. My point is despite Daniel's own dislike and/or fundamental disagreement with his ideas that I for one can at least bear witness to the fact that Hatsumi-sensei holds him in very high regard.


He holds many people in high regard for many different reasons. This has zero bearing on anything.

Quote:
My point is that I doubt that Hatsumi-sensei would tell him something just to trick him or test him.


You are right... probably not to maliciously trick him. But he sure likes to tell people what they want to hear!

Quote:
Has Hatsumi-sensei gone off the rails and departed from "the basic precepts of that the Bujinkan arts are founded on" ??


I don't think so at all... he has always been 100% consistent in my eyes.

Quote:
The original question was "What constitutes Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" - is the reality of this that it is just a mishmash of Hatsumi Ryu that has departed from "the basic precepts of that the Bujinkan arts are founded on" which it the kata of the nine schools?


No, I think it is the followers of the Bujinkan who teach before they are even actual students is what has departed from it.

Quote:
What is Hatsumi-sensei teaching in his classes? The essence of Budo Taijutsu which we should be practicing, some high level - like Ri from "Shu Ha Ri" or is he now just "an old man pottering around his shed" ??


I think he teaches what amuses him at any given moment. How many times does the man need to say he is not teaching?

Quote:
Is the top level of the Bujinkan populated by people who understand Budo Taijutsu or mediocrity? If so what is Hatsumi-sensei's reasoning?


In most cases mediochrity. And I cannot speak to Hatsumi sensei's reasoning behind letting it occur... I have my thoughts, but it is not my place to air them.

Quote:
s the essence in Hatsumi-sensei's kuden or the densho?


Yes.

Quote:
Is Hatsumi-sensei the reason you're in the Bujinkan or do you just view him as an eccentric annoyance in your study with a shihan who teaches the correct kata and the two standard henka?


Wow, way to limit the field to two answers. Who has the agenda here?

Posted on: 2007/11/2 13:28
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Re: the essence of something
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I was involved in a group conversation with Mr. Martin a few years back when he was doing a seminar up in Canada (don't worry, Ed, it's okay if you don't remember me.) At that time, if my memory serves me correctly, Ed stated that Hatsumi sensei had told him at the Tai Kai that, to paraphrase, 'whatever works is ninjutsu.'

Perhaps there is a bigger difference between what is ninjutsu and what is Bujinkan than we would like to think.

Posted on: 2007/11/2 16:46
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Re: the essence of something
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Quote:

JeffMueller wrote:
Quote:
My point is that I doubt that Hatsumi-sensei would tell him something just to trick him or test him.


You are right... probably not to maliciously trick him. But he sure likes to tell people what they want to hear!


I hear this a lot too but it is in the line of the "he just gives you rope to hang yourself with", "he just says things to test you" etc in that they don't want to acknowedge something Hatsumi-sensei has said that flies in the face of how they view things should be. I think most of the time is just plain misinterpretation and/or misunderstanding.

On the statement that "Anything that works is Bujinkan" I really think it is consistant with other things Hatsumi-sensei has said. You are claiming he is just telling people what they want to hear but could it be that you are just disregarding something that you don't want to hear?

Quote:

JeffMueller wrote:
Quote:
The original question was "What constitutes Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" - is the reality of this that it is just a mishmash of Hatsumi Ryu that has departed from "the basic precepts of that the Bujinkan arts are founded on" which it the kata of the nine schools?


No, I think it is the followers of the Bujinkan who teach before they are even actual students is what has departed from it.


That is an easy blanket statement to make. Of course I only know Japan and Australia but I can only think of a very few isolated cases of this in either country now. The different shihan in Japan have different focusses but I don't see people teaching before they are actually students there.

As for Australia we have lots of fine instructors like:
Ed Lomax, David Hamden, Jason Sargent, Scott Schulze, Peter White, Gillian Booth, Frances Haynes, John Cantor, Nicholas Lynn, Andrew Beattie, Scott Abercrombie, Glen Constable, Paul De Silva, Greg Alcorn, Tony Graf, Geoff Smith, Andrew Macdonald, Andrew Buckley, Jamie McAnnich, Greg Hinks Warren Cross, Tim Bathurst, Craig Guest, Gary Bailey, Andrew Jarvis, Chris West, Rick Owens, Duncan Stewart, Dale Heers ... and more

Of course opinions vary but I would say all of these guys can teach you a lot about "What constitutes Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" and have all been students before they were teachers.

My point here is I read these posts by people pushing the idea that the Bujinkan is rotten except for a very few but the reality (in Japan and in my country) is far from it. We are doing very well and have a right to be positive.

Posted on: 2007/11/2 16:54
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Re: the essence of something
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As one Shihan said concerning what is Bujinkan:
"Karate is known for kicking and punching.
Judo for throwing..... Bujinkan is FOOTWORK"

Anyway getting a consistent and accurate definistion on what is Bujinkan and what is not, is difficult I think.

Concerning "anything that works is ninjutsu", I read/understand this as "there is no limit to what you can do, as long as it is founded in the basics of taijutsu (footwork?)".
Maybe Ed could elaborate more of the conversation to give the setting of the conversation, as I feel it is too easy to read alot into this.

Please let not this thread too fall into the mud of attacking people. We are all Bujinkan, aren't we? Thanks.

Goran Gronvold
Norway

Posted on: 2007/11/2 18:03
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Re: the essence of something
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Quote:

benkyoka wrote:
Perhaps there is a bigger difference between what is ninjutsu and what is Bujinkan than we would like to think.






PS. I seem to recall from back in the day... was it Autumn 1994... that Hatsumi-sôke decided to call the mertial art he teaches Bujinkan Budô Taijutus, and said that Ninjutsu shouldn't be used as a name as it was more or less incorrect and possibly misleading....

Posted on: 2007/11/2 18:55
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