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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Village Old Timer
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I think the most important thing here to consider is: rank isn't important in the bujinkan in regards to skill and training.

If the guy in question wants to train with this other guy, he should just put on the white belt, or wear whatever to hold a sword in place and his gi jacket closed.

Your rank is your ability. One teacher simply judged this guys ability to be that of a mu kyu.

Don't believe in your rank, believe in yourself and train to continue to develop. Practice, practice, practice!

How many teachers would still be teaching if all rank disappeared.
How many dojo's would still be up an running if the teachers were suddenly given shodan instead of 10th Dan or 15th Dan.

If rank disappeared would you still train? Would you still try hard?

Do people really need the carrot in front of their noses to get the cart moving?

Posted on: 2009/6/20 12:23
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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Quote:

ElfTengu wrote:
But if you accept a really bad black belt into your dojo with open arms, you have to accept that from that point on, they represent you and your dojo, and you can see the teacher's point of view in not wanting that.


Which is imho another form of pride being hurt...

Quote:

We have occasional black belt visitors where I train who are are 7th kyu ability at best, I don't know if they were graded at my local dojo many years ago or somewhere else many years ago, but it was definitely many years ago if you know what I mean! And even though it is my local dojo, and I'm not that great myself, I wouldn't want someone from another dojo or other art coming along and judging me, the dojo or our art based on what they see an undeserving black belt doing.

Again another form of ego being hurt...
If somebody judges the whole training based on that one bad black belt, means his judging skills are a bit flawed... Who cares if you loose one potential new student.


Quote:

You could even lose your own students if you tolerate the presence and accept the rank of an individual graded higher than them, unless you either promote your own students arbitrarily to make up the difference, or demote the unworthy newcomer, and I know which option I feel would be preferable, to preserve quality control.

I wouldn't want to have students who quit training because I accept somebody with a higher grade and worse skills to the dojo. Point missed about what training is about. Probably those studens were never meant to become "good budokas".

take care,

Jan

Posted on: 2009/6/20 18:13
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Jan Ramboer
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Kutaki Postmaster
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Good points Jan, but in my exerience, not all Westerners are as humble as you Belgians, and not many Westerners have the innate philosophy to deal with these issues in such a manner.

I would hesitate to write off students as never likely to become budokas for having hurt pride, especially if they are still young an impressionable. How many of these youngsters come to the art as perfect selfless beings?

The only way we are ever going to enforce the point about what training is really all about is to get rid of rank altogether and REALLY make your ability your rank!

I know a 15th dan who puts on a white belt every time he visits another person's dojo or goes to their seminar. We could all learn from this.

What always really makes me laugh though is the irony that those who make the most fuss about rank not meaning anything are those who already have it.

As a shodan I am particularly aware of the changes to my outlook on this, the sudden change from desperate desire for recognition to the burden of then having to live up to that recognition. It is probably more of an issue in the promotion from 1st kyu to 1st dan than any other prior or subsequent grading including 5th and 10th dan, because once a black belt you are a black belt all the way, and no matter who you are, it means a lot at the time and has an effect on your ego even though most of us then fight that effect for the rest of our martial careers.

Posted on: 2009/6/20 21:05
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
村長 :: Sonchou
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Quote:

ElfTengu wrote:

I would hesitate to write off students as never likely to become budokas for having hurt pride, especially if they are still young an impressionable. How many of these youngsters come to the art as perfect selfless beings?

Hmmm... with my statement I did not mean that those students don't have the potential to become a good budoka with proper training. I just meant that maybe their path in life is not meant to take the path of budo due to a (wrong) judgement early on in their life... Happens all the time, shouldn't worry us.


take care,

Jan

Posted on: 2009/6/21 0:09
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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Quote:

I am sometimes surprised that no one has chosen to wear an old piece of rope as an obi ala Takamatsu O Sensei,


Actually, I know someone who does that.

Posted on: 2009/6/21 9:32
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Kutaki Postmaster
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Quote:

I think the most important thing here to consider is: rank isn't important in the bujinkan in regards to skill and training.

If the guy in question wants to train with this other guy, he should just put on the white belt, or wear whatever to hold a sword in place and his gi jacket closed.

Your rank is your ability. One teacher simply judged this guys ability to be that of a mu kyu.

Don't believe in your rank, believe in yourself and train to continue to develop. Practice, practice, practice!


Agreed, completely .... for people beyond shodan (or maybe even godan if you're interested in the test?).

People who wear belts other than black routinely complain that at seminars or in Japan, their training partners always want to teach them instead of train with them. And it's not uncommon to see kyu ranked students getting less attention at seminars than is given to black belts. It's not right, but it happens sometimes.

Also, there are schools where the head instructor doesn't teach people below a certain rank. There are even some schools where kyu level students are taught by someone a few kyus above them and the head instructor only "helps out". In places like these, rank matters because as stupid as it sounds (and as stupid as it IS), in schools like these your rank determines the seniority/experience of your instructor.

And if someone chooses to ignore your hombu-issued certificates and bust you down to mu-kyu, chances are they themselves take rank (and/or money and/or themselves) pretty seriously.

In the broader sense, sure, your rank is your ability, but that approach only works when you're in an environment where you're taught and treated based on your ability - and busting someone down doesn't paint that picture for me.

Posted on: 2009/6/21 9:51
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Village Old Timer
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Shouldn't all dojo's teach and rank on peoples abilities?

Posted on: 2009/6/21 12:24
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Village Old Timer
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Quote:

侶武 wrote:
Shouldn't all dojo's teach and rank on peoples abilities?


If Soke doesn't why should anyone else?

Posted on: 2009/6/21 15:15
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
村長 :: Sonchou
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Perhaps also it would help to define what "abilities" are being taken into account in the decision to promote.

But even so, it will still be up to the ranking instructor's definition of what a good ability is - whether its a taijutsu ability or a leadership ability or a secretarial ability. This is a very subjective area in the Bujinkan, and Sensei has created / allowed this situation.

So although people who see themselves as serious budoka and as having high standards that they want to not only maintain themselves but also impose on others in the Bujinkan, until the day that Sensei lays out a formulated, Bujinkan-wide syllabus or set method for testing, discussing this topic is a bit of a moot point, imho.

X should have better taijutsu. Yes, he/she probably should.
Y should be a better teacher. Yes, he/she probably should.

And probably so should I.

S

Posted on: 2009/6/21 19:33
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Village Old Timer
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How about 1000 hours practicing per Dan?

100 hours per kyu rank.

1000 hours for shodan.

5000 for 5th Dan.

10000 for 10th Dan.

15000 for 15th Dan.

So about 2 years ( average) for shodan.
10 years 5th Dan.
20 years 10th dan.

30 years for 15th Dan.

That's at a modest 10 hours of practice a week.

But, that's not something likely to happen.
The bujinkan ranking is what it is and unlikely to change.
It has little to meaning, but if it went away it would hurt a few people I think.

Posted on: 2009/6/21 19:53
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