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Re: spiritual training and kihon happo
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Quote:

Fnord325 wrote:
In forward motion the heel is a receiver, not an initiator.


There are those that would argue that especially when running, the heel should just be a potentiator, that we should be much more on our toes. It often depends on your point of view.

Marty

Posted on: 2010/9/7 12:25
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Re: spiritual training and kihon happo
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There are those that would argue that especially when running, the heel should just be a potentiator, that we should be much more on our toes. It often depends on your point of view.

Marty


I would agree. The heel can receive and transfer kinetic energy as we move forward, transfering it to the ball of the foot for forward motion. If you transfer your weight to the rear, then it can transfer that kinetic energy rear word, but it can't initiate.

To continue with my initial statement, the act of walking is falling. You can not walk in any direction without first throwing the body out of equilibrium. If you don't do that, then you are standing still.

The importance of the legs and feet in taijutsu is, of course, important, but I think it is equally important to study how the mechanism really works and the ways in which that mechanism can be manipulated.

I remember seeing a demonstration of kihon happo presented in movement related to three schools: Koto Ryu, Gyoko Ryu, and Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Each method of movement was distinct, but still shared similar principles in motion initiation. The differences were in the timing of the application of power and which limbs followed that impulse first. It was an interesting demonstration and produced a desire to study movement more closely.

I would also like to say that there is a wealth of knowledge concerning kinesiology and sports medicine studies that can clear up misconceptions about movement often widley held in martial arts circles.

I am not an expert in these fields, but I have consulted experts and the literature on many occassions to supplement my understanding of the body in athletics.

Posted on: 2010/9/7 13:34
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Re: spiritual training and kihon happo
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Quote:

Zenigata wrote:
If I am standing normally and advance my right foot one step the movement is initiated from a shift of weight from my centre to move my weight from my right foot to my left in order to move my foot and then return the weight to its centre balanced equally between my two feet.

If I take a step in as the classic weight shift I am shifting my centre (probably sinking a bit) to my left leg and advancing my right foot seemingly independently, placing it and then transferring my weight while probably shifting my weight / balance drawing power from the ground, through the legs, hips and spine etc.

Unless I immobilise my upper body somehow I can’t move my legs without moving from my core. Even if I am standing on one leg I can’t put the other leg down or hop without doing this.


There is a good exercise in this. As a receiver of such movement, if you see the body shift to their left and they advance with their right leg, you aim your strike just to the right line of their step - because that's where their weight will naturally return to.

The trick is to create motion by first bending the knees. Once motion is started, you can guide it along the same line as your step - without having to take weight away from your stepping leg. Transfer of weight and the step are all done together instead of 2 movements. This is a singular transfer of motion in one line. It also reduces the shifting, which is a vulnerability and a suki to anybody who has moderate skill.

Arnaud Shihan taught me a version of Sui no Kata where you start from Shizen, step back to Shoshen, then shift to the angled Ichimonji no Kamae - all in one movement. There is no stop from Shoshen to the 45 degree angle change into Ichimonji/Jodan Uke. It requires creating the motion straight back into kamae, then lifting the rear leg and using the hips to arc the movement to the 45 degree angle without stopping. Beginners will shift weight forward onto the lead leg to 'step' over to the 45 degree angle, then transfer weight back to the rear leg. This is incorrect and dangerous. You have to do this move while keeping the weight going backwards. It uses a lot of the calf muscle and using the hips to change direction of movement. The feet move in time with where the balance point is, as it moves first straight back, then arcs out to a 45 degree angle. The footwork is used to keep balance.

I hope this makes sense...

Posted on: 2010/9/7 13:47
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Re: spiritual training and kihon happo
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This is an interesting discussion. Though, videomaterial would help immensely to carry the point accross....

Posted on: 2010/9/7 15:02
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Re: spiritual training and kihon happo
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Posted on: 2010/9/7 15:45
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Re: spiritual training and kihon happo
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I have done muto dori with hundreds of different people, here is one constant. If the attempt to get out of the way is initiated with foot movement, it is impossible to clear that sword. The only way to clear is to move your core, hips and shoulders aligned and only then follow with the foot movement. Yes the core movement is a shifting of weight and twisting of the spine.

Posted on: 2010/9/7 21:04
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Re: spiritual training and kihon happo
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Quote:

Darren wrote:

Arnaud Shihan taught me a version of Sui no Kata where you start from Shizen, step back to Shoshen, then shift to the angled Ichimonji no Kamae - all in one movement. There is no stop from Shoshen to the 45 degree angle change into Ichimonji/Jodan Uke. It requires creating the motion straight back into kamae, then lifting the rear leg and using the hips to arc the movement to the 45 degree angle without stopping. Beginners will shift weight forward onto the lead leg to 'step' over to the 45 degree angle, then transfer weight back to the rear leg. This is incorrect and dangerous. You have to do this move while keeping the weight going backwards. It uses a lot of the calf muscle and using the hips to change direction of movement. The feet move in time with where the balance point is, as it moves first straight back, then arcs out to a 45 degree angle. The footwork is used to keep balance.

I hope this makes sense...


this needs vids.

in the quest videos of gyokko ryu, koto ryu and kobudo no kihon, that 45 degree-off step is marked by a peculiar and subtle weight shift to the lead leg. even hatsumi soke steps off just a lil' bit with his lead leg before getting off line using his rear leg. add that to the fact that hatsumi usually has a mid-level kamae and nearly in the 50-50 range of weight distribution.

looking at manaka sensei in the gyokko, he has a low kamae, and he moves off line with a little 'give' on his front knee then he evades.

so your word description of that 45 degree off line thingy of arnaud doesn't give it justice. is it workable at low kame? can it start from a kamae with uneven weight distribution?do you need a straight backwards momentum to do it(or in another direction)?

seriously, this needs videos.

Posted on: 2010/9/7 23:12
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Re: spiritual training and kihon happo
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Quote:

Lockfield wrote:
in the quest videos of gyokko ryu, koto ryu and kobudo no kihon, that 45 degree-off step is marked by a peculiar and subtle weight shift to the lead leg. even hatsumi soke steps off just a lil' bit with his lead leg before getting off line using his rear leg. add that to the fact that hatsumi usually has a mid-level kamae and nearly in the 50-50 range of weight distribution.

looking at manaka sensei in the gyokko, he has a low kamae, and he moves off line with a little 'give' on his front knee then he evades.

so your word description of that 45 degree off line thingy of arnaud doesn't give it justice. is it workable at low kame? can it start from a kamae with uneven weight distribution?do you need a straight backwards momentum to do it(or in another direction)?

seriously, this needs videos.


I know. This is why I said these things are difficult without real example. But, try this to get an idea of what I mean: stand in Ichimonji no Kamae. Without transferring weight forward, 'throw' your rear hip and shoulder as one towards your right 45 degree angle. At the same time, just lift the rear foot using the thigh/calf muscle - without raising your body up. You should be able to shift angle without having to go forward.

Now, when you step back into Ichi from Shizen, you just keep the motion going as you turn in the hip/shoulder/leg to be at 45 degrees. It's difficult, but it can be done until it becomes easier. You'll find that there is no stepping involved, but rather a curved redirect of motion using the hips and shoulders.

This can be done from low kamae because it uses a horizontal movement initated from the hips/shoulders. The leg just keeps up to hold the balance. However, unless you develop your joints and muscles for it, it is difficult. You really need 'budo legs', something us in the West can often have a hard time with.

As far as moving back from a downward cut, body mechanics dictate that if you only move the head/shoulders back, the hips/stomach will actually push forward and get cut. If you move just the hips back, the head will dip forward and be cut. But, if you move the hips back, bending the legs, you can make an arcing shape that matches the arc of the downward cut - and create a forward momentum for you to lunge forward with. The feeling is that you are moving forward the entire time, but the shape of your posture/body allows space for the weapon to move through without contact.

I think my friend has video of that. I'll find it and post it for you if I can get it (it's on YouTube, so it's already public).

Posted on: 2010/9/8 2:25
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Re: spiritual training and kihon happo
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It seems you were not able to find it, or did you forget?

Posted on: 2011/3/2 2:27
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Re: spiritual training and kihon happo
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Darren,

Thanks for your excellent description. I've found myself moving this way from time to time but didn't really think to focus on it until I read your description. I'll be looking at this in my training from now on.

Many times I've wrestled with the feeling of being 'bull-dozed' by an attacker, and I think this has a lot to do with it. Simply trying to 'reach further' with the rear leg doesn't cut it. Moving as you describe, there is indeed much more of a feeling of moving from the center. Thanks again for shining a light on this.

Posted on: 2011/3/3 5:34
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