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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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NightCrawler wrote:

So, do you really think that "true ninja techniques" can be bought on a VHS? The "real" ones...They must be very "secret"...

How does this reconcile with the history of the art??? I naively believe that you had to find a master and follow him...


The phrase - "Hiding in plain sight" seems appropriate here - IMO.

I am not sure if I follow what you are saying though... Is your "following" naive - or is producing video and considering it "teaching" naive?

-Daniel

Posted on: 2005/4/27 7:37
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Bujin001 wrote:
Because Soke is who he is, he can make a movement ninjutsu. Therefore I say, "in my opinion"...Yes, All of the 9 ryu are Ninjutsu. As far as the Sokes other arts, They may not have started out ninjutsu but after he embodied them..they became ninjutsu. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.
LANTZ


Nonsense! So by your logic, when Hatsumi sensei takes a bath, it is ninjutsu, or the ninja way of taking a bath? When Hatsumi sensei mails a letter, is it ninjutsu? If he is watching tv, is it ninjutsu? When he puts on a business suit, is it ninjutsu? Each ryuha has the densho for what that ryuha entails. Some are ninpo and some are not.

Posted on: 2005/4/27 8:25
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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benkyoka wrote:
So by your logic, when Hatsumi sensei takes a bath, it is ninjutsu, or the ninja way of taking a bath? When Hatsumi sensei mails a letter, is it ninjutsu? If he is watching tv, is it ninjutsu? When he puts on a business suit, is it ninjutsu?


I'm quite sure Soke would say YES. It depends on what you mean by "Ninjutsu", doesn't it?

See also my post on this page.

Posted on: 2005/4/27 8:39
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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George_Ohashi wrote:

I'm quite sure Soke would say YES. It depends on what you mean by "Ninjutsu", doesn't it?


Perhaps I am not understanding the question - but isn't the question about whether or not some schools have (or don't have) ninjutsu in them?

Then it is as simple as checking the densho - yes?

If Hatsumi sensei uses a Judo throw - does Judo then have ninjutsu in it? Or is it just that there is a Ninja doing Judo...

-Daniel

Posted on: 2005/4/27 9:48
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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DCWeidman wrote:
Then it is as simple as checking the densho - yes?


Yes, if it is how you judge the school.

Quote:

If Hatsumi sensei uses a Judo throw - does Judo then have ninjutsu in it? Or is it just that there is a Ninja doing Judo...


I don't think all the things Soke does have the ninjutsu aspect. Ninjutsu is not the only thing he does.

On the other hand, no Waza can exist without a person who performs it, and then the Waza is inevitably "colored" more or less by the performer's character. It can be tasted like Ninjutsu, or something else.

Posted on: 2005/4/27 10:39
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Quote:

George_Ohashi wrote:
I don't think all the things Soke does have the ninjutsu aspect. Ninjutsu is not the only thing he does.

On the other hand, no Waza can exist without a person who performs it, and then the Waza is inevitably "colored" more or less by the performer's character. It can be tasted like Ninjutsu, or something else.


I agree with George
I think that you are putting far to much thought into this. It is what it is.
However, Soke is not teaching from the densho is he? Therefore one could argue that he is teaching ninjutsu.

I would argue that many things that one does are ninjutsu etc.

If when partaking in an activity you do something different than most than thats a possibility. Say you are relieving yourself, if you were at war time you might fully remove your pants so that if you were atacked in the process you were still mobile? I won't be the one to ask soke if that is how he does things...lol

if there was a straight answer then it wouldn't be ninjutsu would it. its kyojutsu?

maybe just get rid of the title ninja... do you have to be a ninja? can't you be a capable warrior or something? why do you need to carry the title ninja? Ninja means different things to different ppl. I suggest taking what the ninja grandmaster says...

Posted on: 2005/4/27 10:56
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"Take this with a grain of salt, hell salt to taste"
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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to further confuse the topic, i direct your attention to this:

in hatsumi sensei's recent book, "The Way of the Ninja: Secret Techniques" there is a picture on pg 17 with the caption "A Makimono scroll from the author's teacher, inscribed 'Takamatsu Toshitsugu Kikaku proclaims Hatsumi Masaaki to be Soke'"

On the left side of the scroll in the picture it says quite clearly "gyokko ryu ninjutsu."

or am i seeing things?

another question: does call it ninjutsu or kosshijutsu change anything?

i offer to you for your consideration that it doesn't change anything...the techniques are still there for you to train with and glean from them what you can...

just a thought

Posted on: 2005/4/27 13:17
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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As someone said already - what is Ninjutsu? How do we define that? Do we define that?

This is what I was told once years ago by a Shihan: the Ninja had to know the ways of the other schools, otherwise they would stand out like a sore thumb from the society - no way to hide, that. 1st came the Bugei Jûhappan, then the Ninja Jûhakkei...

But the lineage and tradition of a school is as it is - and surely some schools have developed/evolved during their years (recall Gyokko-ryû being called #OOPS#ojutsu in some references), that is the right any Sôke has, right? But, also, what does the Densho say, how is it coined there?

From "The way of the Ninja: Secret tecniques":

On the page 18 we have Togakure-ryû NinJUTSU

On page 21 "I learned many schools of Ninjutsu ... Togakure-ryû, Kotô-ryû, Gyokko-ryû, Kumogakure-ryû, Gyokushin-ryû, Gikan-ryû, and so on..."

Page 36 has entry "...Ninja's unique Taijutsu (body arts) and fighting arts, also known as Ninpô Taijutsu, Koppôjutsu or Kosshijutsu."

And on page 40 "Kosshijutsu is another name for Ninpô Taijutsu".

From page 43 "In Ninpô Taijutsu we train in unique Ninpô techniques called Kihon Happô..."

As noted before - the nine schools we have listed in our "curriculum" have been tied to each other through out their histories, more or less, and came together with Takamatsu-sensei (from two or three "sources - one school came as double from the different teachers)*. Knotting them even tighter together. And then we have Bujinkan Dôjô Budô(/Ninpô) Taijutsu - no school names "separated".

But, still, this all comes to the same - how do you/we/one define Ninjutsu?

* AFAIK, naturally.

--------------
Ari Julku
Shidôshi
Bujinkan Yamazu Dôjô

Posted on: 2005/4/27 15:53
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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I believe that the Sanshin, Kihon Happo and three basic Muto Dori were labelled as Ninpo Taijutsu, and we all know they came from Gyokko Ryu. So I guess they intertwine and people can use whatever labels suit them. Even Koto Ryu Koppojutsu has been called Karate (Chinese hand) and the Iga ryu system of Ninja combat was called Karate (again, Chinese Hand) by Sandayu Momochi.

http://www.winjutsu.com/source/sandayu.html

Plus, one of the Gyokko Ryu scrolls on the Takamatsu DVD has “Ninpo” labelled on it.

cheers

Posted on: 2005/4/27 16:01
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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I believe that the Sanshin, Kihon Happo and three basic Muto Dori were labelled as Ninpo Taijutsu, and we all know they came from Gyokko Ryu.


Interesting! Where'd you learn this? Where were they labelled as such?

---------------
Ari Julku
Shidôshi
Bujinkan Yamazu Dôjô

Posted on: 2005/4/27 18:03
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