Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Socialize
 

Recent Topics
Topic Replies Last Post
Ichiba 0 2/21 1:18
Dpinga
Santa Rosa Bujinkan Dojo 6 2/10 9:38
Bumbling-budoka
Kyudo within the nine schools 47 1/3 22:40
Unsubscribed
Kanji for Hacho Ken 14 1/3 22:36
Unsubscribed
BladesPro 25 1/3 22:35
Unsubscribed

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



« 1 2 3 (4) 5 »


Re: a question that concerns any muslim who wishes to join a martial arts school
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2004/4/26 6:19
From West of you , but East of San Francisco
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 224
Offline
Boggs wrote:
Quote:

Can't you show respect by shaking their hands just as easily or in any other manner that is not in conflict with ones religion.



Sorry I just established a new religion where shaking hands is a form of physical prayer to, um.... Baal, Viking good of basket weaving. Seriously though, what about the things we do that mean something to someone else, but we are totally unaware of. When does intention come into play, or does it not?

Heres a serious question, can a muslim not do , say, certain yoga exercises because he/she would be prostrating him/herself before another person?

Eva, finding someone ( Mr. Sarbat) with pertinant knowledge of both is ideal. Sometimes though, one must settle for experts on only either subject, then make personal evaluations based on the intake of info. But I agree 100% that the sources of the info must be worthwhile, otherwise it's all just a house of cards.

Mr.Boggs, before one can make the argument in your quote up above, one must first etablish that whatever action is actually in conflict with ones religion. To jump to any conclusion would, IMHO, not be putting forth the proper effort towards understanding ones religion and in some reoundabout way disrespectfull to the religion. If it is actually determined to be in conflict with the religion, then your argument above would be reasonable. If it is determined to not be in conflict, then the argument above is totally inapplicable. If no effort or merely a token effort is put forth to make the determination, then the argument is a copout. If proper effort is put forth and a determination still cannot be made, then the argument can be used for the purpose of "erring on the side of caution". But saying the same thing over and over, well, thats not even going in circles, it's more like a line made up of dashes. Thanks.

~Juan zazueta

Posted on: 2008/1/2 4:46
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: a question that concerns any muslim who wishes to join a martial arts school
Deleted_
Quote:

mujinzou wrote:
Boggs wrote:
Quote:

Can't you show respect by shaking their hands just as easily or in any other manner that is not in conflict with ones religion.



Sorry I just established a new religion where shaking hands is a form of physical prayer to, um.... Baal, Viking good of basket weaving. Seriously though, what about the things we do that mean something to someone else, but we are totally unaware of. When does intention come into play, or does it not?

Heres a serious question, can a muslim not do , say, certain yoga exercises because he/she would be prostrating him/herself before another person?

Eva, finding someone ( Mr. Sarbat) with pertinant knowledge of both is ideal. Sometimes though, one must settle for experts on only either subject, then make personal evaluations based on the intake of info. But I agree 100% that the sources of the info must be worthwhile, otherwise it's all just a house of cards.

Mr.Boggs, before one can make the argument in your quote up above, one must first etablish that whatever action is actually in conflict with ones religion. To jump to any conclusion would, IMHO, not be putting forth the proper effort towards understanding ones religion and in some reoundabout way disrespectfull to the religion. If it is actually determined to be in conflict with the religion, then your argument above would be reasonable. If it is determined to not be in conflict, then the argument above is totally inapplicable. If no effort or merely a token effort is put forth to make the determination, then the argument is a copout. If proper effort is put forth and a determination still cannot be made, then the argument can be used for the purpose of "erring on the side of caution". But saying the same thing over and over, well, thats not even going in circles, it's more like a line made up of dashes. Thanks.

~Juan zazueta


I just talked to my drinking buddy Thor and he said Baal hits like a girl!

Mr. Zazueta, the OP gave specific reasons and concerns about things that WOULD be in conflict with his religion and wanted to know if he could find a Bujinkan school in his area that would work with him. He specifically stated several things that were in direct conflict with his religion and that he had run into problems in the past.

While I don't think we should be super politicaly correct, the guy was pretty clear about what he was worried about and people telling him to get over it is hardly helpful IMO.

Posted on: 2008/1/2 5:36
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: a question that concerns any muslim who wishes to join a martial arts school
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2004/4/26 6:19
From West of you , but East of San Francisco
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 224
Offline
I competely agree, telling someone to get over it is seldom productive or helpfull (sometimes though, just not in this situation) and Baal does hit like a girl, but Thor only brought it up due to his legendary jealosy of Baal's basket weaving skills, it's just common knowledge, haha.

I Think I understand where you are coming from. You are of the position that a correct determination has been made establishing said actions as against his religion. You are taking the OP statements as correct and at face value. This is totally cool. I was coming from the position that perhaps some of his ideas were somewhat unrefined or needed further verification/understanding. For me to follow my course of reasoning and be able to make any sort of worthwhile statements, I would now have to go and learn about various religions from the East and Middle East.....which I'm not going to do, haha.

I guess my summation would be, find good sources for info that you not only trust, but are verifiable beyond how ones self feels about them, show your info to those better suited to understand it or make a determination upon it if possible in order to secure a worthwhile second opinion on the assesment of the info. make your own final assesment based on everything you have learned. Fortunately, with religions, a lot of stuff is set in stone and nonnegotiable. With the right leg work, one could find a definative answer to all these questions devoid of opinion based on ....canon?, is that the right word? Ok, Thanks all.

~ju an
Z A zueta

Posted on: 2008/1/3 2:16
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: a question that concerns any muslim who wishes to join a martial arts school
Active Kutakian
Joined:
2003/12/28 18:32
From Belgium
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 136
Offline
I think that I'd have a problem with someone who was projecting their religion and religious concerns onto me or others. I don't expect much from the people that I train with, but that's one of the few.

One of the things which I like about some of the schools in the Bujinkan is that there are aspects which go back hundreds of years and are quite traditionally Japanese. I would be very unhappy to miss out on something because someone in the class might be possibly maybe offended.

I can understand if someone has physical limitations or is scared of injuring themselves, but this is free choice. If too many things are offensive to him, then maybe he should find something more modern.

Posted on: 2008/1/3 7:20
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: a question that concerns any muslim who wishes to join a martial arts school
Just Passing Through
Joined:
2005/2/21 2:03
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 3
Offline
Hi

I run a Bujinkan club in Central London, UK and anyone from any religion will always be welcome

See www.bujinkanlondon.org for more info

I ask that all students comply with Soke's requirements (see www.bujinkan.com) and I only kick out people who are unpleasant human beings

Dunc

Posted on: 2008/2/11 4:42
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: a question that concerns any muslim who wishes to join a martial arts school
Deleted_
Quote:

Redneck_Shinobi wrote:
I think that I'd have a problem with someone who was projecting their religion and religious concerns onto me or others. I don't expect much from the people that I train with, but that's one of the few.

One of the things which I like about some of the schools in the Bujinkan is that there are aspects which go back hundreds of years and are quite traditionally Japanese. I would be very unhappy to miss out on something because someone in the class might be possibly maybe offended.

I can understand if someone has physical limitations or is scared of injuring themselves, but this is free choice. If too many things are offensive to him, then maybe he should find something more modern.


The guy is not asking for the class to change, he's just asking to not have to participate in things that are against his religion.

Most Western religions don't actually require you to do anything to be faithful or devout, obviously Islam does and the guy should not catch flack for making sure he can join in somewhere where his beliefs will be respected.

I mean if you can respect some of the originators of our arts learned from farking mountain goblins, I think letting this guy practice one of the largest religions in the world should not hurt a class to much. He doesn't want to bow, say prayers and he doesn't want to practice with girls, why is that such a big deal?

Posted on: 2008/2/11 5:39
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: a question that concerns any muslim who wishes to join a martial arts school
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2004/4/26 6:19
From West of you , but East of San Francisco
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 224
Offline
Quote:

Boggs wrote:
[quote]
Most Western religions don't actually require you to do anything to be faithful or devout


Just because people don't do them doesn't mean they arn't required. Perhaps less enforced, either by the individual or someone else.

~Juan
z
a
z
u
eta

Posted on: 2008/2/11 11:30
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: a question that concerns any muslim who wishes to join a martial arts school
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2005/12/1 16:49
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 181
Offline
In the Bujinkan there are not that many rules. The few guidelines may give a hint though:

"7. The tradition of the Bujinkan recognizes nature and the universality of all human life, and is aware of that which flows naturally between the two parts:

•The secret principle of Taijutsu is to know the foundations of peace.

•To study is the path to the immovable heart (fudoshin).

Recently, the Bujinkan has become truly international. Just as there are various time zones, so exist various taboos among the world's peoples and nations. We must respect each other, striving to avoid such taboos. We must put the heart of the warrior first, working together for self-improvement and for the betterment of the Bujinkan.

Those not upholding the above-mentioned guidelines shall be forced out of the Bujinkan. "

As long as one can accept the above I think it wont be any problems.

Best Regards / Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2008/2/11 19:08
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: a question that concerns any muslim who wishes to join a martial arts school
Occasional Visitor
Joined:
2005/1/13 8:28
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 9
Offline
This is just my 2 cents!

I have trained for over 20 years in the Bujinkan and learnt one very important leeson "on the matts all people are equal no matter what their colour, creed or religion" This also means that we can not as instructors have one set of rules for one student and another set of rules for the others. If you look at it from another point of veiw students that do bow would take exception to not being bowed back to as it shows a lack of respect. I know that the women that train in my club have the exact same rights as the men, and they would be insulted if someone didn't want to train with them, as they put in the same amount of effort as the men, so why should they not have the same rights or be discriminated against by someone saying they don't want to train with them? This is the west where we are tolerent of all people. If you lived in a muslim country you might not have these problems, but you live in England and as the old saying goes...."When in Rome, do as the Romans do".

My comments may sound harsh, but they are real!

I wish you the best on your journey!

P.S Hey Ercan it's good to see you on the board, long time no see!

Marcus Dwyer
Bujinkan Dwyer Dojo
Ireland

Posted on: 2008/2/29 9:44
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: a question that concerns any muslim who wishes to join a martial arts school
Village Old Timer
Joined:
2005/10/10 19:54
From Istanbul Turkiye
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 529
Offline
Hımmm...I think there are many thing that westerners (maybe it is not just westerners but all of us who does not care to learn their religion)know wrong about Islam Actually I never read a word in our holly book Kuran-i Kerim that you can not touch women The thing is Islam accepts people's old traditions if it is not against the religion. For example in Arabia women used to wear overgarment before Islam and now people think that it is a Muslim clothing there are many many applications like this which is not a part of Islam.

As a Muslim I am sorry to see these kind of wrong beliefs in the world about Islam. This is surely about the politics of imperialism but people can not see this yet, one day they will see but it will be too late (I know I sound like an inidian chief).

I am so comfortable with being a Muslim and training Bujinkan. There is a word of our prophet Muhammed he says ''Even if the science is in China (which was the farest place to go) go and learn it''

Gambatte

ps:Hey Marcus, how are you doing? say hi to all friends

Posted on: 2008/3/1 1:30
_________________
Ercan SARBAT
www.bujinkanturkey.com
www.leathertabi.net
-----------------------------------------
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer



« 1 2 3 (4) 5 »




[Advanced Search]


Today's Sponsor