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Re: Dan Shu
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Quote:
Hon gyaku or ura gyaku are entirely possible with this kata.


Sure, one could do hon gyaku, ura gyaku or other types of locks if one wanted. However it does change things alot. The need for the second hand for example as well as the distance are the 2 most prominent things imo. I suppose the end of the kata is not the most important part though...

Regards / Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2008/8/27 16:05
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Re: Dan Shu
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So much for the new book ending all confusion LOL

Posted on: 2008/8/28 12:43
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Re: Dan Shu
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Clarification of the equation

Quote:

Tamatora wrote:
Algebra ...

equation of motion for "Dan Shu"

(T2+T4+T5)*(K2+K3+T4)*T3 = 0



Assume Kihon Happo as

Kosshi : K1 K2 K3
Torite : T1 T2 T3 T4 T5

<<Dan Shu>>

Term 1 : (T2+T4+T5)
Since the opponent comes with "grasp and tsuki", you need the essence of T2. At this moment the opponent grasps your sleeve, so it requires the essence of T4 or T5. It requires to take opponent's arm and wrist to gyaku by the essence of T5 just before the uke.

Term 2 : (K2+K3+T4)
Hit opponent by the ura shuto and kicking are the essence of K2. Since same hand is used by uke and shuto attack, it is the essence of K3. Additionally, kick into the opponent's leg is the essence of T4.

Term 3 : T3
The arm is twisted inner, while the opponent is falling face upward. It is the essence of T3.

If multiplication of these terms is equal to the zero, then you can bring your opponent's attack to naught.


CAUTION !!! This is not an official taught. Just my pleasure thinking.

M.Harada

Posted on: 2008/8/29 1:31
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Re: Dan Shu
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Mr. Harada

Your math is brilliant!

Thank you!!!!

Marty

Posted on: 2008/8/29 3:04
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Re: Dan Shu
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I really like the feeling of zero in this equation!
Thank you, Harada Sensei!

Mariusz

Posted on: 2008/8/29 5:06
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Mariusz
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Re: Dan Shu
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Quote:

skuggvarg wrote:

Sure, one could do hon gyaku, ura gyaku or other types of locks if one wanted. However it does change things alot. The need for the second hand for example as well as the distance are the 2 most prominent things imo. I suppose the end of the kata is not the most important part though...

Regards / Skuggvarg


I'm afraid you're missing the obvious point... you don't need both hands to do ura or hon gyaku. The position of the arm when it's wrapped often lends itself to hon gyaku or ura gyaku AS IS. No need to change anything.

Nothing else changes. How you capture the arm with the wrap is the only difference. You should be able to get ura/hon gyaku with the same wrap that you get muso dori.

Posted on: 2008/8/29 11:20
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Re: Dan Shu
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Aric,

I think you missing Skuggvarg points. I don't think he is denying the possibility using them. You can use bat and bash his brains if you like with the other hand. The point is the first section of kata for Gyokko Ryu is trying to teach a idea. There are other groupings also teaching different ideas. By changing the kata you may possibly loose the lesson they are trying to teach.

If you want to later work on other principles and ideas using Dan Shu as a format or vessel, then that is a person's perogative. More often than not people don't know the appropriate kata to begin with and see people making adding things in because it feels right to them. Then they teach it as the original and you get all the confusion. Not mention the original feeling is lost or becomes difficult to understand. Another reason why most don't understand the real value of kata. If you don't understand the setting or the background it simply looks like movement. Then you get the opponents of kata that say they have no value. They are only for the sake of tradition and preservation.

If the all the principles were handed to us like a check list like some arts then it doesn't matter what we did as long as they are properly understood. Unfortunately, we used the kata to learn the principles. Alot of the time the kuden are the principles. Which I think justifies the original way first and all the henka later.

Everybody wants to study Physics but no one wants to learn basic math first.

Posted on: 2008/8/29 15:38
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Re: Dan Shu
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Oh, please. Basic math, right.

You still don't get it, I'm afraid. Muso dori and uragyaku are virtually the same technique. When you apply muso dori in danshu, you very often END UP with uragyaku and take ori. Very often the uke's wrist will end up barred against your body.

It's not CHANGING ANYTHING. It's not 'using the kata as a vessel'. It's simply DOING THE KATA as shown. I learned it that way from day one about 15 years ago and it continues to be done that way... EVEN IN SOKE'S NEW BOOK! <gasp>

Because they aren't called 'take ori' or 'hongyaku' in the school doesn't mean they aren't there. They are found in some of the higher level muto kata.

They've been there a long, long time.

Anyway I didn't miss Suggvargs point at all. He said you'd need the other hand for uragyaku and the distance would change. IT DOESN'T REQUIRE A SECOND HAND OR DIFFERENT DISTANCE. The kata naturally allows uragyaku or hon gyaku by its basic form.

But seriously, there is clearly some kind of communication gap if you don't see that. So, carry on!

Posted on: 2008/8/29 23:57
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Re: Dan Shu
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Actually, I didn't read your post before the last one careful enough. You are correct so touche!

Posted on: 2008/8/30 2:40
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Re: Dan Shu
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Fair enough. You are a decent fellow.

Take Care!

Posted on: 2008/8/30 8:14
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