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Re: Three points of contact
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Quote:

Ninjaman wrote:
"One of my newer students is a large man, very solid and built very similar to the late Butch (for those who remember him). You just can't move this guy unless he either moves himself or you have some dynamic force of the heavens coming down to do it for you..."


I find that I sometimes end up in a situation where I might have moved out of the way for an attack and stepped in close to the opponent. I might have missed to break his balance or the opportunity didn´t present itself. Then I just wait, "shadowing" the opponent, until he moves again. Then he is vunerable. When someone moves, they are imbalanced. Even if he is a big guy.

The above of course happens fast, in the split second of an encounter. My point is that if you "miss", you don´t really miss, but just await the next move of the opponent. Don´t use force, use patience.

Johan



This is a bit off topic, but yes I agree. With him, it is easy to take/pull his balance off if the timing/distancing/angling is right. But, once his weight settles, forget it. He admits the hard part is "letting go" and having the ukemi for it when his balance is lost. When he loses balance, he will stumble and fall, using a lot of space and landing badly. This is his big challenge right now. The others need to learn patience and how to create this loss of balance - and those around him just need to be aware of the large object floundering towards them...

Posted on: 2009/2/5 10:02
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Re: Three points of contact
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Why are we worried about "points of contact" and not about Kukan?...........isn't it all about the space?.....


just thinking out of my ars

sorry

Sean Snyder

P.S. When I train as an "FYI" I feel for the space or area that is not being used and the oppenent fails......maybe it's just me.............


Sean Snyder

Posted on: 2009/2/5 11:43
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Re: Three points of contact
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Quote:

sean snyder wrote:
Why are we worried about "points of contact" and not about Kukan?...........isn't it all about the space?.....


just thinking out of my ars

sorry

Sean Snyder

P.S. When I train as an "FYI" I feel for the space or area that is not being used and the oppenent fails......maybe it's just me.............


Sean Snyder


To talk about the "kukan" effectively requires an understanding of the "points of contact".

The two subjects are related, and ought to be explored. Although, verbally and in writing will have pitfalls, it is important nonetheless to discuss it.

You can't do anything with the Kukan without the points of contact.

Posted on: 2009/2/5 13:43
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Re: Three points of contact
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侶武 wrote:
Quote:
To talk about the "kukan" effectively requires an understanding of the "points of contact".


I disagree, does this also mean to talk about points of contact requires an understanding of the "kukan"




Quote:
The two subjects are related


In what way?


Quote:
You can't do anything with the Kukan without the points of contact.


Again I disagree, please explain.


Sean Snyder

Posted on: 2009/2/5 23:07
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Re: Three points of contact
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Apologies if I will state tjhe obvious (for some) or something stupid (for others). But this is a forum, so hey.. i will try


For me, the way I look at it, kukan (that one of my teachers called once "interactive space") is defined by the boundary conditions created by interacting bodies, changing in time. Contact at some points could be there at some other could not be there, right?. But the potential for contact (in the "future-possible", present, "possible-pasts") exists.

<on> For those engineers and scientists out there...
In physics, you often study space of a field by the boundary conditions .

Contact is but one of the boundary conditions. So this suggests that it maybe useful for studying kukan...
<\off>

For example, if I am getting punched or getting my arm ripped out off the shoulder socket - this is connected with some contact in some points. This contact came form some distance and form some time sequence in the past... the contact is effective only at some angle, speed and structural alignment of the bodies that contact. You want to learn how to avoid such things on one side and on the other how to be able to use them if there is a need to defend the loved ones. Study of kukan seems to me to be much broader than points of contact. However those points are a useful tool for study and the thread started by somebody more or less pointing that out! hehehe and we can create tons of foam out of it and sail away to the clouds (cloud hands come to mind as a useful study tool for how to be in space).

Now, is this three points? I think can be an arbitrary number, but three is a great learning tool for reasons that were pointed out earlier in this thread.

ooookay.... i turn off the fire hose now... I turned it on by mistake, and it was not mine anyway!

peace
mn

Posted on: 2009/2/6 5:16
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Re: Three points of contact
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Please bare with this response, I'm doing while a little sick and on my iPhone.

Here are the main points:

1. Kukan is shape that changes (in dimensionality and time)
2. As taught in mathematics and like sciences shapes have points, lines, planes and other such things.
3. Kukan is a relationship between objects (much like gravity).
4. The points of interaction are the points of contact.
5. These points of contact are the borders of the kukan.

What mario said is fairly close to the nature of kukan as used or ought to be used in the bujinkan. But if you can't control the points of contact in the proper ways you might be left with a worthless shape (kukan). At the same time you might not be able to cross sect the right planes of balance as a result.

As far as only having three points I think I'll reject that idea but having at least three is important.


In the future if someone disagrees with something it might be prudent to give a reason why and add your own understanding to the conversation. It provides a bit of something to work with for an explanation and actually points t what the person is disagreeing with.

頑張りましょう。

Posted on: 2009/2/6 9:54
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Re: Three points of contact
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I totally agree with this. The following is my own ideas based on the above, so take them for what they're worth:

In my classes, I describe 2 kinds of space, active and dead. Kukan, in my opinion, is typically the active space. A blind, deaf person would "sense" the difference if they walked from dead space to active space.

Anyway, I find that when you have at least 3 points, like a triangle, the space becomes energized. This is active space. You cannot have a defined space without at least 3 corners. Now, if you are talking about circles (like Ben's kukan balls...) you don't have corners. You don't have a start/stop to the lines. It's continuous and never ending. But, you still have a defined space, with the center being active/alive.

Points of contact can create or define these fields, either as angular kukan or as the circles of endless lines. Space is what is in and out of these shapes, whether active or dead.

I hope that makes sense...

Posted on: 2009/2/6 10:33
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Re: Three points of contact
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How you manipulate the points of contact will cause a reaction in the aite. If you understand how and why these points of contact are important and how to illicit a certain response then you can control the kukan.

If you can't then you are left with putting a square peg in a round hole. Points of contact or points where you either have captured the aite's focus or intention or a physical point of contact where you get a response in their body. Be it their natural response or a brute force strike to move them these points of contact changes the kukan. But ones own body dynamics and structure is very important for controlling the avenues in which the aite can attack or is likely to attack. This is also a point of contact but one of focus. But the shape of your kamae and your body state will determine the type of contact you make. The shape alone doesn't do it. Martial arts mastery requires far more than a single principle in practice.

But they may turn out to be one principle in the end, but without control over your mind, body, and "spirit" you cannot close in on that one principle or come to realize it in both practice and life.

If one takes a deeper look at these ideas (everyone's so far) I think one might begin to understand martial arts better. As all the posts so far have great merit.

頑張りましょう。

Posted on: 2009/2/6 16:55
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Re: Three points of contact
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I suspect you don't have to have any understanding to manipulate kukan .. that it just comes with good training.

Therefore I like the teaching style that lets one figure it out feeling-wise rather than academically.

Seems to be how it works in Japan.... do enough times, properly and.. eureka.

Posted on: 2009/2/6 23:13
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Re: Three points of contact
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Quote:

Therefore I like the teaching style that lets one figure it out feeling-wise rather than academically.


I suspect either can work, though my personal preference is to combine the two.

However, I think it's something that can only be applied "feeling-wise".

Posted on: 2009/2/7 4:59
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