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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Cant Stay Offline
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Quote:

侶武 wrote:
How about 1000 hours practicing per Dan?

100 hours per kyu rank.

1000 hours for shodan.

5000 for 5th Dan.

10000 for 10th Dan.

15000 for 15th Dan.

So about 2 years ( average) for shodan.
10 years 5th Dan.
20 years 10th dan.

30 years for 15th Dan.

Mmmh, I kinda like this!!!!

This - in my PoV - puts the pressure of "being good enough" on the part of the rank holder.....

Posted on: 2009/6/22 0:56
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
村長 :: Sonchou
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What are people actually supposed to be doing during all of these hours? (I mean, besides turning themselves into a "real, proficient, look-good-to-other-people-who-are-supposed-to-know-what-a-real-budoka-is" budoka"?)

Push ups?
Kihon Happo?
Will 10,000 hours of kihon happo turn you into a real budoka?

Maybe 10,000 posts on Kutaki. Yeah, that will really do it.

Seriously, when you say "10,000 hours of practice", what exactly are you talking about?

Rob, you are floating the idea that you have to put in this many hours to be good at anything. Do you mean that you have to put in 10,000 hours on omote-gyaku to be good at omote-gyaku? And then 10,000 hours on ura-gyaku? And then 10,000 hours on hon-gyaku? Obviously a lifetime will soon be spent.

What exactly are you talking about?

<YAWN>

S

Posted on: 2009/6/22 3:14
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Kutaki Postmaster
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I don't think you can measure or quantify what it means to be a "good budoka". As long as you're getting what you want out of your own practice, you're a good enough bukdoa for your own purposes, and I don't think much else matters. I do think though, that mixing the notions of "good budoka" and rank requirements may be a mistake.


For me, this thread was about tolerance - accepting others and not taking ourselves so seriously. I don't see the problem with each of us engaging in this or any other art in whatever capacity and to whatever depth interests us provided we are honest with ourselves and with others about what we're doing and provided we don't meddle in other people's business or training.

Posted on: 2009/6/22 6:39
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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Shawn,

If you want to become a good baseball player you spend a lot of time playing baseball. You don't talk about baseball or watch a lot of basball games you have to play and practice.

So in baseball you'd spend a lot of time taking swings in the batting cage, catching fly balls and fielding, and running the bases...

10000 hours/ opposed to 5000 hours is a huge difference in skill and ability, if one wishes to go pro.

The guy that practiced 10000 hours will more likely be ome pro than the 5000 hour guy.

Since martial arts don't have games or places really to show case ones ability ( beyond embu, and other arts that have competition) the amount time spent in and out of the dojo should be important.

10000 hours of budo practice doesn't mean 10000 of one thing, it means 10000 hours of practicing budo. So that would mean kihon, the kata, suburi, ukemi, sabaki, punching, kicking, muscle control, taihenjutsu, ect.

You ought to put in the time before you recieve certain rank. The time actually doing it and practicing it, in 10000 hours you'll probably will have done 100000 or more rolls and blocks, kicks, throws using aspects of sabaki and other things. The numbers of times are arbitrary the amount of time practicing correctly isn't.

Posted on: 2009/6/22 9:05
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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A lot of people turn up to Kacem's seminars (as advertised here on Kutaki) who are ranked a lot higher than Kacem but go to LEARN FROM Kacem.

But does anyone who feels they are below the skill and knowledge of Kacem ask to be demoted to below yondan, and will any of us who have not yet attained yondan (or godan)refuse to do so when we are awarded it?

Of course not. I have never trained with the man personally but even if I did I would probably not choose to follow his example with regard to ranking any more than I would decline promotion at work because a more deserving colleague also chose to do so.

I also wonder, if our black belt ranks are not comparable with the dan gradings of other martial arts, especially Brasilian and traditional Japanese arts, why do we still use a belt of this colour?

And is it hard work, shame or humility which causes many yudansha to sport black belts that have turned white again?
Or does it depend on the individual? Personally I take my belt like I take my coffee, black, not grey, not speckled.

We also seem to appear to the wider MA comunity to be adopting traditional Japanese/Korean/symbology but without demonstrable equivalent skill.

I did not pick BBT as a martial art to follow because of the ease with which I could achieve black belt (I took 22 years by the way), but others may. And who can blame them if they judge their life achievements by such an attainment? Conventional education has done the same thing for far longer than martial arts have had belt ranks.

Posted on: 2009/6/22 9:05
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Kutaki Postmaster
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On rank if someone shows up I tend to take them at face value. In the end they either perform or underperform. Those who fall into the later category either grow and learn or leave. Up to them. We will train with them if they want to.

I do tend to agree that the art takes time and effort. You cannot just come to class 2 or so days a week and make any real progress. I found that if I did not get it in class I needed to go over and over it again in my free time. To learn to do things correctly and to develop muscle memory. How much time, as much as was needed.

Used to scare the crap out of my ex and my dogs when I was dive rolling over furniture. Or the weird looks from my neighbors when I did aruki for months on end with a bow over my shoulders.

How many hours? Could be 10 for me, 1 for someone else or 50 for another person. There are so many variables that a model based on time is not very practical.

I tell people that Shodan takes in general 3 to 5 years to achieve and that all depends on what you put into it. I think for me it was 5 to 7. Godan close to 14. I do remember one year when Dale sent a missive around on how rank was not important. I found this funny as not more than week later when I visited his class a guy I knew was taken aback since I was not a Godan and he was. Poor Alan. I guess he learned the art but forgot how to read. Or to listen to his teacher. That Dale fellow and his funny ideas.

At this stage whatever is next has ceased to be very important. Also, I tend to think, and have for a long time, that there are other factors. Skill is one thing. All too many have the skills of lions and the hearts of mice. No one can teach that part. You have it or not. Maybe I do and maybe I don't. Won't know till the far lady sings I guess.

Posted on: 2009/6/22 13:08
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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elf Tengu wrote: "But does anyone who feels they are below the skill and knowledge of Kacem ask to be demoted to below yondan, and will any of us who have not yet attained yondan (or godan)refuse to do so when we are awarded it?"

Yes, I know I will. Im happy I dont have a higher grade. Its bad enough as it is. Why are everyone so hung up on grades? I seriously consider wearing a think obi instead of a normal black belt. Would be more useful when practising sword anyway.

Regards / Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2009/6/22 19:38
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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I think that like British politicians' expense accounts, as long as grades exist they will be scrutinised.

Yes of course there are all the usual musings that grade/rank is between the holder and the bestower, but if this is the case then nobody needs to know what anybody else's rank is.

Virtually all of the definitions of the term 'grade' at the link below and in most dictionaries tend to suggest that the terms is used to differentiate between different levels of skill, experience and or quality, and I'm sure the definition for 'rank' will be similar.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grade

You then have the paradox that no one is officially a 'teacher' in the Bujinkan until they are a godan shidoshi, although they may 'instruct' as a shidoshi ho or lower rank even, under the auspices of a shidoshi or shihan, but then you have people saying that rank doesn't mean anything. It either does or it doesn't, and it is difficult to enforce the rules on teaching at certain grades when a rank means nothing in terms of knowledge and ability, other than to pass the sakki test or still be waiting to.

And when a new student comes to your dojo and enquires about your credentials, do you refuse to tell them, saying that it doesn't mean anything, and do you state your rank on your website and advertising?

Yes Skuggvarg, perhaps we should all wear patterned iai obi or bits of rope after all! :D

Posted on: 2009/6/22 20:51
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Kutaki Postmaster
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Quote:

... but if this is the case then nobody needs to know what anybody else's rank is.

Exactly.

Quote:

And when a new student comes to your dojo and enquires about your credentials, do you refuse to tell them, saying that it doesn't mean anything,

Actually, yes. I tell them I'm a fully licensed instructor and that beyond 5th dan the numbers don't mean anything objective so there's no point discussing it. If that puts them off, no problem. I don't mind if they don't want to stay. By that time I've usually already told them where to find other instructors within driving distance anyway, so they know they have other options.

Quote:

and do you state your rank on your website and advertising?

No. My name isn't even on the website. I don't have or want brand equity and even though I love cheese, I just couldn't keep a straight face while writing myself the typical martial arts instructor bio that stops just short of saying "I knew I was born to be a martial artist because I was kicking in the womb - before birth!" :p

Posted on: 2009/6/23 1:31
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Cant Stay Offline
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Rank has been discussed extensively on Kutaki. Consider this: the student is responsible for the instructor they choose and that choice will greatly influence what you learn. Maybe instead of just looking at "rank" you should look at what that person can teach you. Now with that said, what is more important to learn in this art? ability to move or knowledge of terms and repetition of kata? I think most will make a point of saying that it is what you put into you "muscle memory" not the intellectual knowledge of "history". I have many times stated that the "belt" you wear is not you "rank", that is what is inside and proof of that occurs when you need to face a "real" situation in Life. There is no way to "test" it, you can only get the best training you can and keep going. Anyone who thinks that just attainment of rank id THE measure of skill is foolish, and if you DON"T seek out teachers who can aid YOUR learning then you are responsible. Kacem has never taken his go-dan test, why? I will say that this test is the one critical step in our progression within our art. Without it you may attain great skill and knowledge but will never understand the core of this art. I don't know Kacem, to my knowledge I have never trained with him and so will NOT make an evaluation of what he has to teach. YOU the STUDENT must do that for yourself, if he has things to teach that you value then make your choice, if not then you have another choice. Now please let's get off this "rank" issue.

Posted on: 2009/6/23 10:32
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