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Re: Soke's Diet
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Quote:

Philip wrote:
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noname wrote:
I'd like to call your attention to the work of a certain Dr. Weston A. Price.....some of you may have heard of him, although I doubt it. The publication is called "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration."

I'd suggest that anyone with an interest in the health of primitive peoples read this book. Dr. Weston Price (dentist) went around the globe for many years researching and studying various indigenous groups, comparing the health of those who remained within their traditional diet to those who had conformed to the diet of the white man (processed foods). What he found was SUPERB health within those primitive groups which followed a certain diet pattern (by keeping to their traditional diets). The health of those who conformed to the white man's diet shoudln't be mentioned, since you might get tuberculosis and cavities just hearing about it.

P.S. None of the "real" primitives had extra chlorine or flouride in their water.


The first chlorinated water was in 1910. So no most of those countries did not have chlorinated water. The first fluoridation was in 1945, so again, no fluoridation in the areas he was studying. I have never had a cavity. When I ws younger I had processed foods. Care to show us mortality statistics? Perhaps extreme changes to diet led to some of the maladies he discovered? Maybe changes in political situations that closed access to food played a role, too.

Phil


I'm willing to bet that as a child you had access to modern dental techniques (like toothpaste) which the natives, who switched over to processed food, did not have access to. Regardless, there are exceptions to every rule. (Just like some people are allergic to sunlight, and some smoke their whole lives and don't get cancer)

Cavities are only a small part of the consequences of malnutrition. Inadequate room in the jaw for the wisdom teeth is another EXTREMELY common result of malnutrition (Dr. Price asserts), either during fetal development or during early childhood development. Thank god I've got room for mine. Excessively small hips, which make child-bearing dangerous, are another result of malnutrition......The list is quite extensive.

Weston A Price Book

Here's the book. I suggest reading it if you are interested in nutrition.

P.S. This book is the shortened version of his full research.

P.P.S. Mortality rates aren't the real issue. Quality of life is the issue (to me).

Posted on: 2008/5/8 15:43
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Re: Soke's Diet
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Lance why would you deliberately choose to misinterpret what I said? I said pure water without the chemicals, you know there is such a thing, people buy bottled water for that very reason if I'm not mistaken. Now I really don't want to open a whole discussion on how "pure" that water is either.


Yeah and I'm saying you don't get pure water without chemicals.

Bottled water is tap water most of the time, this has been on the News and Paper for over a year.

Quote:

The bacteria for chlorea and dysentry can be dealt with with boiling. The problems created by chlorine and fluoride can't. The biggest grouse I have with those two chemicals is that they are deliberately added to the drinking water, and we're told they are actually good for us. Nobody tries to put a spin job over the copper, lead, mercury and other nasties that use over-the-top distortion on their electric guitars.


I drink 1 - 1.5 gallons of water a day, I'm not spending four hours a day boiling water... Besides if you have allot of heavy metals in your water and you boil it then you are going to concentrate those heavy metals as the water evaporates. I know your not telling me you boil all of the water you drink.

Quote:

(Heavy metal, get it? (cue 'smoke on the water' guitar riff here) Oh nevermind... )

I thought YOU of all people would get pi55ed off at this kind of cover up...


I don't get it.

Posted on: 2008/5/8 22:27
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Re: Soke's Diet
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"Yeah and I'm saying you don't get pure water without chemicals."

I think you're confused here Lance, water with "purification" chemicals is only water that won't make you sick immediately from the bacteria. Pure water is something entirely different and has none of those chemicals added. Now when your choice is the chemically treated water or river water that has come by "who knows what", then of course you take the lessor of two evils. As always it is your responsibility alone for what you choose to put in your body.

Posted on: 2008/5/8 22:59
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Re: Soke's Diet
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Quote:

Boggs wrote:

Quote:

The bacteria for chlorea and dysentry can be dealt with with boiling. The problems created by chlorine and fluoride can't. The biggest grouse I have with those two chemicals is that they are deliberately added to the drinking water, and we're told they are actually good for us. Nobody tries to put a spin job over the copper, lead, mercury and other nasties that use over-the-top distortion on their electric guitars.


I drink 1 - 1.5 gallons of water a day, I'm not spending four hours a day boiling water... Besides if you have allot of heavy metals in your water and you boil it then you are going to concentrate those heavy metals as the water evaporates. I know your not telling me you boil all of the water you drink.

Quote:

(Heavy metal, get it? (cue 'smoke on the water' guitar riff here) Oh nevermind... )

I thought YOU of all people would get pi55ed off at this kind of cover up...


I don't get it.


My first point is: why add toxic chemicals to do something boiling can do in the first place? Of course, now that the chemicals HAVE been added, boiling the water isn't a smart idea. You now have to choose between less concentrated (don't boil) or more concentrated (boil) toxic chemical mix, including those chemicals paid for and put into the water by YOUR tax money...

2nd point: heavy metal chemicals // heavy metal music. Clearer now? I was trying to crack a joke there...

3rd point: I'm referring to the spin job put into convincing people that fluoride was put into the water for THEIR benefit. It's hard not to read up on the matter and dismiss it as a crazy conspiracy theory, but there are people in the US fighting to have fluoride removed from their drinking water. And they are not all kooks.

Junjie

Posted on: 2008/5/9 0:51
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Re: Soke's Diet
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I can understand the datum so the long version is quite fine by me.
I do challenge his premises and your claims as to the scope of the problems presented. Malnutrition does cause problems, no duh. Processed foods are both a bane and a boon. A bane if prodeuced with added yuck, over used, or used as the basis for a diet. A boon if you don'y have access to ready foods, need food in an emergency or need to transport foods over long distance, or store for an emergencie for long periods of time, or need specific nutrients not availiable or...

Political instabilities and famine are more the cause of malnutrition in the countries he studied than a change to the western diet. The fact that folks had recieved western foods is a result of a new thing called "aid".
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryR ... dTopics/holisticdent.html
Wait here is a passage:
Quote:

Much of "holistic dentistry" is rooted in the activities of Weston A. Price, D.D.S. (1870-1948), a dentist who maintained that sugar causes not only tooth decay but physical, mental, moral, and social decay as well. Price made a whirlwind tour of primitive areas, examined the natives superficially, and jumped to simplistic conclusions. While extolling their health, he ignored their short life expectancy and high rates of infant mortality, endemic diseases, and malnutrition. While praising their diets for not producing cavities, he ignored the fact that malnourished people don't usually get many cavities.

Price knew that when primitive people were exposed to "modern" civilization they developed dental trouble and higher rates of various diseases, but he failed to realize why. Most were used to "feast or famine" eating. When large amounts of sweets were suddenly made available, they overindulged. Ignorant of the value of balancing their diets, they also ingested too much fatty and salty food. Their problems were not caused by eating "civilized" food but by abusing it. In addition to dietary excesses, the increased disease rates were due to: (a) exposure to unfamiliar germs, to which they were not resistant; (b) the drastic change in their way of life as they gave up strenuous physical activities such as hunting; and (c) alcohol abuse.

Price also performed poorly designed studies that led him to conclude that teeth treated with root canal therapy leaked bacteria or bacterial toxins into the body, causing arthritis and many other diseases. This "focal infection" theory led to needless extraction of millions of endodontically treated teeth until well-designed studies, conducted during the 1930s, demonstrated that the theory was not valid [1,2]



So when your done getting your mega vitiamins/ and watching out for soy products (see http://www.westonaprice.org/) show me the science. I'll await your points on quality of life issues(I'm sure everyday is a struggle in front of your computer), but you might need to get out of Texas and actually see the mechanisms/causes for a poor quality of life and concerns of people who are struggling for any quality of life starting with access to basic foodstuffs.

p.s. I kinda take umbrage at your use of terms which belittle people. Whats up with "white man" and "primitive"? "Natives?"

Posted on: 2008/5/9 3:49
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Re: Soke's Diet
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Are you aware that Stephen Barrett is a retired psychiatrist?

Have you read Dr. Price's book yet? Please don't rely on the criticisms of others BEFORE you read his book. It's quite a fascinating read, complete with pictures and everything.

"Political instabilities and famine are more the cause of malnutrition in the countries he studied than a change to the western diet."

The "modernized" groups he studied had access to plenty of calorie rich foods, so in that sense they were not "malnurished." The problem is that the foods they were ingesting (white bread, sugar, canned foods, etc.) did not have sufficient body-building nutrients (vitamins, minerals, etc.) to maintain their health.

Many of the statements this doctor (a psychiatrist) is making run directly contrary to what Dr. Price talks about in his book.

"While extolling their health, he ignored their short life expectancy and high rates of infant mortality, endemic diseases, and malnutrition. While praising their diets for not producing cavities, he ignored the fact that malnourished people don't usually get many cavities."

1. The people he studied, who maintained their ancestral diets, were not malnurished. Period.

2. Dr. Price talks about how the diet and lifestyle of these natives actually made childbirth safer and less painful for both mother and child. Barring that, high infant mortality keeps the population in check, something we modernized folk have failed miserably at.

3. Length of life has nothing to do with quality of life. Period.

4. According to Dr. Price the natives were actually quite disease free, and when they did get diseases they usually had enough knowledge of nutrition to locate the appropriate food to cure it.

Let me try to explain what Dr. Price found. He found two groupings of "primitive racial stock": one gouping which subsisted the way their ancestors had for a long time and one grouping which had switched to modern foodstuffs. The pattern he found, that those who maintained their ancestral diet and lifestyle had SUPERB health and those who switched over had HORRIBLE health, was the same all over the world (New Zealand, Ireland, N. America, S. America, Australia, Africa, European Mainland, Oceania, and possibly somewhere else I've forgotten). These findings were accompanied by chemical analyzations of the various types of food the natives ate. He found that they ate food MANY times richer in nutrients than the modern foods contained.

The pattern is quite clear to me.


"but you might need to get out of Texas and actually see the mechanisms/causes for a poor quality of life and concerns of people who are struggling for any quality of life starting with access to basic foodstuffs."

I've been out of Texas many, many times to more than a few countries....destitution is nothing new to me.

"p.s. I kinda take umbrage at your use of terms which belittle people. Whats up with "white man" and "primitive"? "Natives?""

To me, "primitive" is a compliment. "Native" means indigenous to that region. "White man" pretty much hits the nail on the head, don't you think? it's a fact that the white skinned men are responsible for the modernization of the world. Please enlighten me if I'm mistaken. Although you'll have to disavow the period of empire expansion during which Europe's people (white men) enslaved MANY indigenous peoples and effectively started the process of world modernization.

p.s. I'm white skinned.

p.p.s. Please don't think that I'm romanticizing these peoples' ancient way of life......I'm merely pointing out that I believe we can learn more from them than they can learn from us.

p.p.p.s. Yes, I'm aware that there have been many multi-colored empires that enslaved people. However, my concern is with the most recent wave of empire expansion which began the modernization of the world.

Posted on: 2008/5/9 8:58
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Re: Soke's Diet
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*I've been out of Texas many, many times to more than a few countries....destitution is nothing new to me.*
I apologies for that one. It was a rude assumption.

*Are you aware that Stephen Barrett is a retired psychiatrist?*
And Price was a Dentist. And there are only 28 registared Dentists with the Weston A. Price Foundation in the US.
Does one degree negate the other? Does a DDS in the '30's have a better understanding of food health Than a FDA recognized MD who is also recognized by the America Nutritional Assosciation?

*1. The people he studied, who maintained their ancestral diets, were not malnurished. Period.*

This is because a lot of the people he studied (not all grant you) were on western diets because they were given food stuffs prior to his visit. Africa had undergone a huge famine that ended roughly in 1913.
The Maori had already started to integrate into New Zealands health care system and have been improving healthwise since the '30's. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1470538

I don't even want to get started with Factor x. Or the eating of brains, and other organ meats.

*Dr. Price talks about how the diet and lifestyle of these natives actually made childbirth safer and less painful for both mother and child. Barring that, high infant mortality keeps the population in check, something we modernized folk have failed miserably at.*
We are at fundemental odds here philosophically.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASI ... 24230/medved-20/ref=nosim
I'm reading your book, will you read mine?

*To me, "primitive" is a compliment. "Native" means indigenous to that region. "White man" pretty much hits the nail on the head, don't you think? it's a fact that the white skinned men are responsible for the modernization of the world. Please enlighten me if I'm mistaken. Although you'll have to disavow the period of empire expansion during which Europe's people (white men) enslaved MANY indigenous peoples and effectively started the process of world modernization.*
This reminds me of the Post-Marxist garbage I had to endure at the UofO in Oregon.
Which society did not take slaves prior to the "white man's" run at the world? Would you consider the Arab a white man? How about the Chinese? Except their slavery was post inustrial and politically based, guess that doesn't count, eh.

Posted on: 2008/5/11 13:13
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Bwahaha...
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Wow... What is Hatsumi So'ke's advice? If not firsthand, what has he told you first hand?

Posted on: 2008/5/11 18:08
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Re: Soke's Diet
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"And Price was a Dentist. And there are only 28 registared Dentists with the Weston A. Price Foundation in the US.
Does one degree negate the other? Does a DDS in the '30's have a better understanding of food health Than a FDA recognized MD who is also recognized by the America Nutritional Assosciation?"

Yes, but he was a Dentist who actually went around the world and actually studied the natives in their "natural" setting. Can Mr. Barrett claim the same?

At this point, I'm equating Mr. Barrett's claims to the claims made by certain martial artists concerning the legitimacy of Hatsumi soke's teachings on martial arts. Things are easy to criticize from a distance. If, however, it is shown that Dr. Barrett did travel around the world and actually studied various native groups in their native setting while they were subsisting in their ancestral way, then I will reconsider.

What an organization does with the knowledge given to it should not be the only qualifier of the quality of the original info that started it. (Take the Bujinkan for example).

"This is because a lot of the people he studied (not all grant you) were on western diets because they were given food stuffs prior to his visit. Africa had undergone a huge famine that ended roughly in 1913."

This would be contrary to what Dr. Price records in his book. Perhaps in certain parts they had minimal supplementation of their ancestral diets with something (although I don't remember any mention of it in the book). Take the Masai for instance......they ate blood, milk, and meat. That's about it. Dr. Price found that they were in superb health.

"Or the eating of brains, and other organ meats."

Dangerous if ingorant but nutritious if knowledgeable. Dr. Price actually "caught" scurvy when he was in Canada with the natives there. They saved him by giving him a certain organ from a certain animal (caribou or moose, if I remember correctly) which was very high in vitamin c.....saved his life.

"We are at fundemental odds here philosophically."

So, are you saying that the unrestricted growth of humans is a good thing? I'm curious to understand how it is a good thing, considering that we are polluting the ocean, land, and air.

In his book Dr. Price talks about how practically all of the tribes that he studied implemented minimum waiting periods in between pregnancies. Many of them also had special, nutrient-super-dense diets prescribed for mother, and sometimes father, for certain mandated periods of time prior to conception. It was believed, by the natives, that these practices helped ensure that the baby was as healthy and perfect as possible. Dr. Price found this to be true. In fact, it goes so far that he recorded data concerning mothers and fathers who had conceived a child prior to switching over to a modernized diet, and the child had a very high level of physical perfection. The second and third children, however, had been conceived after the mother and father had switched over to a modernized diet. The differences in the level of physical perfection of the children were startling.

"This reminds me of the Post-Marxist garbage I had to endure at the UofO in Oregon.
Which society did not take slaves prior to the "white man's" run at the world? Would you consider the Arab a white man? How about the Chinese? Except their slavery was post inustrial and politically based, guess that doesn't count, eh."

I'm just talking about the group of people (of a certain skin color) who happened to be the ones to spread the seedling of "industrialism" to the world. I'm by no means justifying them or the others throughout history who have kept slaves.

P.S. The text based version really doesn't do it justice, since there are no pictures. You should buy the book if you get interested.

P.P.S Oh dear.....

Dr. Barrett

Posted on: 2008/5/12 1:49
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Re: Soke's Diet
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Ummm, that ruling is under appeal and the ninth circuit has reversed the other claims against Barrett, and has reversed the damages awarded against him.
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

No. 04-55193
D.C. No. CV -02-0221 O-JML

I would like to pick your brain a little more(not eat it), but I think we have derailed the thread. James has a crazy notion of getting it back on track.

Maybe we can continue over e-mail or on a diffrent thread. Up to you. Public or private fine by me.

Posted on: 2008/5/12 5:37
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