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chihaya furu...
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Could I please trouble you guys with a little question about kanji?
I tried to find the kanji to:
Quote:
chihaya furu, kami no oshie wa, tokoshie ni, tadashiki, kokoro mio mamoruran

with the translations I have.
Yet I can't really manage to get the kanji.

Posted on: 2004/6/21 23:46
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Achim "Kennin" Steigert

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Re: chihaya furu...
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On p.148 of 'Hamboujutsu, Juttejutsu, Tessenjutsu',

千早や振る 神の教えは とこしえに 正しき心 身を守るらん
(Chihayaburu)

(FYI, the third letter 'や' is not necessary there, and 'とこしえ' can be written as '永久' or '永遠', too.)


HTH

Posted on: 2004/6/21 23:59
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Quote:

George_Ohashi wrote:
千早や振る 神の教えは とこしえに 正しき心 身を守るらん
(Chihayaburu)

(FYI, the third letter 'や' is not necessary there, and 'とこしえ' can be written as '永久' or '永遠', too.)

HTH


Does this originate from a single ryu-ha? Or is it from no ryu-ha at all?

Posted on: 2004/6/22 0:33
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Sorry, I have no idea.

Posted on: 2004/6/22 0:37
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Thank you very much!

Posted on: 2004/6/22 0:49
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Re: chihaya furu...
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I've a few questions on this.

First of all, thank you Ohashi-san for the kanji.

onegaishimasu, . . .

Question 1) "Chihayaburu" - is it "buru" instead of "furu" as a matter of euphonious pronunciation, much like "kata" becomes "gata" after certain words, etc.?

Question 2) "'とこしえ' can be written as '永久' or '永遠', too."

Is there much difference between the two alternatives? My dictionary has the same definition/translation for both. If they are synonymous, then I think I'd stick with the first one - smaller stroke count! - though I see that one can also be pronounced, "towa" & "eikyuu" in addition to "tokoshie" & the other shows only "eien" for pronunciation.

Question 3) is the "ran" part at the end of mi-o mamoru some kind of conjugation verb change? I can't find 'mamoruran' in my dictionary, and I don't know grammar well enough to know what "ran" at the end of words mean.

For a while I thought it was for 乱, but that didn't make sense given its position in the sentence.

Question 4) John Walker: "Does this originate from a single ryu-ha? Or is it from no ryu-ha at all?"

I think I saw someone mention that it may be from Kumogakure Ryu, though it seems like a generic (no offense) Buddhist prayer to me. Any new info yet on its origin?


These aren't really burning questions, so I'm not in any hurry for answers, just idly curious as I ponder all the "shikin haramitsu's" of the world


I've been meditating on those words for a while, and have come up with some pretty interesting (to me anyway) interpretations. Maybe after I get my thoughts to make a little more sense, I'll share them with y'all.


------------------------

マーク マクダーマンド
武神館 道場 - 初段

Posted on: 2005/3/2 0:19
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Quote:

Shizen wrote:
Question 1) "Chihayaburu" - is it "buru" instead of "furu" as a matter of euphonious pronunciation, much like "kata" becomes "gata" after certain words, etc.?


Yes.

Quote:

Question 2) "'とこしえ' can be written as '永久' or '永遠', too."

Is there much difference between the two alternatives? My dictionary has the same definition/translation for both. If they are synonymous, then I think I'd stick with the first one - smaller stroke count! - though I see that one can also be pronounced, "towa" & "eikyuu" in addition to "tokoshie" & the other shows only "eien" for pronunciation.


As you like.

Quote:

Question 3) is the "ran" part at the end of mi-o mamoru some kind of conjugation verb change? I can't find 'mamoruran' in my dictionary, and I don't know grammar well enough to know what "ran" at the end of words mean.

For a while I thought it was for 乱, but that didn't make sense given its position in the sentence.


Find "ramu", an auxiliary verb. Don't forget that this is NOT modern Japanese.

Quote:

Question 4) John Walker: "Does this originate from a single ryu-ha? Or is it from no ryu-ha at all?"

I think I saw someone mention that it may be from Kumogakure Ryu, though it seems like a generic (no offense) Buddhist prayer to me. Any new info yet on its origin?


I have no idea.

Posted on: 2005/3/2 6:18
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Quote:

George_Ohashi wrote:
Quote:

Shizen wrote:
Question 3) is the "ran" part at the end of mi-o mamoru some kind of conjugation verb change? I can't find 'mamoruran' in my dictionary, and I don't know grammar well enough to know what "ran" at the end of words mean.

For a while I thought it was for 乱, but that didn't make sense given its position in the sentence.


Find "ramu", an auxiliary verb. Don't forget that this is NOT modern Japanese.


Should the poet be using "ramu" to end the poem? "Ramu" is the conjecture jodoshi. I would think that the verb should be "mamoramu" (i.e mamoru + mu), which would spell out the conviction that the teaching(s) will protect. Of course you'd most likely have to throw in a zo to have kakari musubi and more importantly avoid ji-tarazu.


Posted on: 2005/3/2 7:56
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Re: chihaya furu...
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I don't know if it is correct or not, what is used there is "らむ".

http://yslibrary.cool.ne.jp/haroajapa009012.htm

Posted on: 2005/3/2 8:40
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Re: chihaya furu...
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"...which would spell out the conviction..."

so adding "ran" or "ramu" to the end of mamoru is like saying: "I am certain," or "I am sure of it" ?


~  マーク

Posted on: 2005/3/2 14:52
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