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Re: chihaya furu...
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Quote:

Shizen wrote:
"...which would spell out the conviction..."

so adding "ran" or "ramu" to the end of mamoru is like saying: "I am certain," or "I am sure of it" ?


"Ramu" is, as I said in my earlier post, conjecture. So in this case it's "It probably will protect ...." "Mu" has an implication of intentionality, so it could convey the teachings "shall/will protect..." Hence my question wondering if "mamoramu" (mamoru + mu) is better than "mamoru ramu" (mamoru + ramu).

Posted on: 2005/3/2 16:55
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Hmmmm...

Why do you think it means a conjecture there? According to the page I put the link to in my previous post, "Ramu" can mean a few other things. Are all of them NG?

Posted on: 2005/3/2 17:08
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Quote:

George_Ohashi wrote:
Hmmmm...

Why do you think it means a conjecture there? According to the page I put the link to in my previous post, "Ramu" can mean a few other things. Are all of them NG?


It's not so much a matter of being NG, just it doesn't seem to fit the context. Ramu can express, according to the Kogo Jiten: 1.) Conjecture about present events, 2.)Conjecture about the reason/cause behind presently occurring events, 3.) Questioning about present events. There's a degree of uncertainty conveyed when "ramu" is used. If the teachings are chihayaburu, filled with divine power, why is the poet second guessing them by using a conjecture jodoshi? That's why "ramu" doesn't seem to fit in my mind.
Moreso than "mu", which would express the poet's intention, "namu" might be the best jodoshi. It is like modern Japanese's -te hoshii, "I want/wish for the teachings to protect my upright heart." In that case, it might a transcription error; the transcriber read the cursive wrong.

Posted on: 2005/3/3 2:31
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Quote:

YuTaiSheng wrote:
Ramu can express, according to the Kogo Jiten: 1.) Conjecture about present events, 2.)Conjecture about the reason/cause behind presently occurring events, 3.) Questioning about present events.


I consulted various dictionaries when I visited a bookstore last night. Most of them say "ramu" can mean something like "dasouda" "toiu kotodesu" (I hear, they say). How about this understanding? Actually, I don't want to change the Tanka itself because I don't understand it.

Posted on: 2005/3/3 6:02
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Quote:

George_Ohashi wrote:

I consulted various dictionaries when I visited a bookstore last night. Most of them say "ramu" can mean something like "dasouda" "toiu kotodesu" (I hear, they say). How about this understanding? Actually, I don't want to change the Tanka itself because I don't understand it.


The key behind that meaning is there is connection between the statement and some other fact or event. Here's the example the late Helen McCullough gives for this usage in her Bungo Manual

Oomu ito aware nari. Hito no iuramu koto wo maneburamu.

The parrot is most delightful. It seems to make a habit of repeating what people say.

You could have ramu mean that; the poem would then say: It seems the divinely powerful teaching protect my upright heart. But, that doesn't seem altogether poetic. It is very jikitai to use the category of Mibu no Tadamine, very direct. Also the reason why the poet is conjecturing this appears nowhere in the poem. Often in the classical poetry I read that's included. But then again I'm a stickler for the traditional approach; you may not have this in mind.

Posted on: 2005/3/3 10:43
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Quote:

YuTaiSheng wrote:
But then again I'm a stickler for the traditional approach; you may not have this in mind.


Probably not.

Instead, I tend to think highly of what has been passed down for centuries because it is a fact, and I usually don't try to change it so that it fits *my* imperfect understanding.
Of course you can do as you like as long as you have enough knowledge about it.

Posted on: 2005/3/3 11:16
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Re: chihaya furu...
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I have been taking a look on this phrase, and I found that it is coming from The Shingon (Esoteric branch of Buddhism) and is part of their GOKUI NO UTA (5 Chants of the heaven - something like that), and here they are:

1º Chihaya buru kami no oshie wa tokoshieni tada shiki kokoro mi o mamoruran shikin haramitsu daikomyo.

2º Bou saki de kyoku wo tsura nuite wagatesaki tegotae- areba gokui narikeru shikin haramitsu daikomyo.

3º Minokamae yu wo arawasu bu no nakani shin no gokui wa kokoro narikeru shikin haramitsu daikomyo.

4º Tsukikage no terasanu sato wa nakaredomo nagamuru hitono kokoroni zo sumu shikin haramitsu daikomyo.

5º Koku fu ni karasu wo nui hakushi ni sagi wo egaku shikin haramitsu daikomyo.

Now for me is more clear the direct relation the Ninpo Ryus have with the esoteric branches of Buddhism, but of course in order to understand all of it I have to study a lot more :)

Luis F. Hernandez

Posted on: 2010/7/31 9:56
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Thanks for your response, Luis - good information!

Quote:

luisfdoh wrote:
I have been taking a look on this phrase, and I found that it is coming from The Shingon (Esoteric branch of Buddhism) and is part of their GOKUI NO UTA (5 Chants of the heaven - something like that)


"GOKUI" here is "GOKU-I" (as opposed to "GO-KUI"), and means "inner secrets or mysteries" (極意).

Shawn

Posted on: 2010/7/31 14:33
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Very interesting.

Reading through this old thread reminds me of Kutaki of 2004-2005 - always new posts by various Japan residents, great discussion of the language - what a place it was!

Posted on: 2010/7/31 21:40
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Re: chihaya furu...
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Luis,

I am quite certain of the source for 2 - 5; it is not Shingon.

What research you have done to believe this? Could you cite your source(s) for these phrases and their relationship to Shingon?




Posted on: 2010/8/1 11:20
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