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Re: Excuse me, who is that in the mirror?
Village Old Timer
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i don' think you could give away 'secrets' by what you say danny. only people who get it, or are starting to understand what it might be, would have a clue about your words, almost like a morse code.

i have seen people being told things over and over and physically shown, but it doesn't seem to register. they are not at a level to understand certain things at that time.

i think it's like a flight of stairs of understanding, maybe first you just watch the hands, later you move onto the feet , then you understand how the body is moving, and so on.

i had really crappy instruction from 'another' ninjutsu group, for me those years were a total waste of time. if i had stayed for 20 years i would have never been any good. how have i changed? after finding good teachers who understand the feeling and being uke with these people. i now have a glimpse of what budo actually is and what good taijutsu looks/feels like. i just have to get these things from my mind to my body.

so however bad my taijutsu is, i now at least can reconise the genuine article from the fake espicially without looking at their belt, and will hopefully never be caught out again.

Posted on: 2004/9/22 22:55
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Posted on: 2004/9/23 0:32
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Re: Excuse me, who is that in the mirror?
Kutaki Postmaster
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NO it hasnt Danny It's just alot of the things in the bujinkan are hard to see unless you recognise them! if you tell someone who had just started about the virus analogy it would be unlikely (maybe?) that they would understand what you mean and on all the levels it could be taken to,... alot of people look at this art as face value and don't see the way that budo enters other areas of life etc,... (well a few outsiders I know do) they think its just a version of karate and ju jutsu with a lot of bad stigma attached to it from the ninja boom from the 80's!

It's hard to explain to people until they see it for themselves sometimes!

Posted on: 2004/9/23 11:41
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Re: Excuse me, who is that in the mirror?
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Quote:

Danny wrote:
I was thinking that I owe so much to so many, I will never be able to repay my debts...My new dream is to figure out how to live the rest of my life in such a way that I can repay these men for granting me my first dream.



I think that this is a beautiful way to look at one's own training. In one sense, it's easy to look at budo from a "What's in it for me?" perspective. This in itself is not really surprising given the way that our societies promote themselves, but if Soke's quote about learning to recognise what is unhealthy for oneself through training is true, then of course we should be able to go beyond this.

In anycase, Hatsumi sensei is forever going on about how much he owes Takamatsu sensei. Surely that is a sign on how to approach training...

Quote:

Danny wrote:
...I dont want people here to be resentful of me for giving away information that they might feel should be paid for in money or effort or something else.


We've often discussed this topic Danny but in the end, if a person hasn't or doesn't want to put in the time, effort and money into their own training, then really, they are probably not going to understand what you or others write about anyway. The Bujinkan, by the nature of what is studied, has it's own self-preservation 'mechanism' in place. As Soke has said, if only ONE person understands, then that's enough...

For what it's worth Danny, I believe that most of the information that you put out is subtle enough to be safe, even though you may feel that you are being blunt. Soke has said many, many times, that we have to understand this art ourselves.

My only concern with 'giving out information' is not so much what is given out (though that is very important) but how the process of giving out that information affects the giver. Takamatsu sensei's teacher Toda sensei apparently wrote something along the lines of, "Don't reveal your knowledge, otherwise it will disappear"... I think that this is important advice and is particularly relevant to, among other things, posting on the internet. (I'm not necessarily referring to anyone in particular here. It is more of a reminder for MYSELF as I type this...)


- Sleiman Azizi -

Posted on: 2004/9/23 13:32
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Posted on: 2004/9/23 19:26
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Re: Excuse me, who is that in the mirror?
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Hi. I would to like to comment on my own evolution, however unfortunately am not qualified.

However, wrt to knowledge I think one appropriately experienced could safely talk about feelings and intuitions: these intangible manifestations of impulses and chemicals are meaningless unless explored through the crucible of BBT... I assume.

Posted on: 2004/10/27 17:46
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Re: Excuse me, who is that in the mirror?
Honorary Villager
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Quote:
sleiman wrote: Takamatsu sensei's teacher Toda sensei apparently wrote something along the lines of, "Don't reveal your knowledge, otherwise it will disappear"...

I mostly agree with you, Sleiman. I simply want to state that I think there is a difference between revealing knowledge and bragging about it. I think we all reveal knowledge to others all the time, in training for example, and I think it´s important to do so. However we should not talk about our knowledge if it is unnecesary or bragg about it. In that case I truly belive it will go away.

(added clarification: this is NOT to say that I think anyone here is bragging or anything remotly like that, I´m only speaking in general terms)

/Micke

Posted on: 2004/10/27 18:13
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Re: Excuse me, who is that in the mirror?
Permanent Village Fixture
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Quote:

Micke wrote:
Quote:
sleiman wrote: Takamatsu sensei's teacher Toda sensei apparently wrote something along the lines of, "Don't reveal your knowledge, otherwise it will disappear"...


I simply want to state that I think there is a difference between revealing knowledge and bragging about it. I think we all reveal knowledge to others all the time, in training for example, and I think it´s important to do so. However we should not talk about our knowledge if it is unnecesary or bragg about it. In that case I truly belive it will go away.
/Micke


That is really insightful! Not that I do that, but the quote is thought provoking for sure.



Posted on: 2004/10/28 4:07
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Re: Excuse me, who is that in the mirror?
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Quote:
Micke wrote:
I simply want to state that I think there is a difference between revealing knowledge and bragging about it. I think we all reveal knowledge to others all the time, in training for example, and I think it´s important to do so. However we should not talk about our knowledge if it is unnecesary or bragg about it. In that case I truly belive it will go away.

I've been searching for the source of the quote but for the life of me, I can't find it anywhere . I am quite sure though that it was "Don't reveal your knowledge (don't talk about, perhaps?), otherwise it will disappear".

In anycase, your point Micke, about not talking unnecessarily, is one of the ways in which I had interpreted the Toda sensei quote.

Also, I do believe that you are right when you say that we reveal our knowledge to others all of the time. I'd probably add to that by saying that what is often revealed is the least of our knowledge. Perhaps that is why Soke can say that everything he has taught until now was wrong.

If I can use an example, watching Soke in action, for me anyway, is like watching the night sky.

It's large, open, beautiful, awe inspiring, all of these adjectives, but in the end, when I look up there and wonder, I realise one very important thing.

I just don't get it.

To me, given my level, it's like he is not showing (revealing?) anything at all but then, I'd hazard a guess by saying that it's the thing that he isn't showing that 'reveals' what he is revealing. The 'trick' then becomes understanding what he isn't showing...

So, having said all that, I guess that the understanding of this art's knowledge, particularly the 'higher level' knowledge, is TOTALLY dependant upon the person trying to uderstand. This obviously creates a nice safety zone so that 'secret' information will ALWAYS remain secret until we are capable of understanding.


- Sleiman Azizi -

Posted on: 2004/10/29 2:39
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Re: Excuse me, who is that in the mirror?
Honorary Villager
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Quote:
sleiman wrote: I've been searching for the source of the quote but for the life of me, I can't find it anywhere . I am quite sure though that it was "Don't reveal your knowledge (don't talk about, perhaps?), otherwise it will disappear".

I can´t find it either (maybe it´s in Essence of Ninjutsu???), but I don´t doubt that you are right.

Quote:
sleiman wrote: So, having said all that, I guess that the understanding of this art's knowledge, particularly the 'higher level' knowledge, is TOTALLY dependant upon the person trying to uderstand. This obviously creates a nice safety zone so that 'secret' information will ALWAYS remain secret until we are capable of understanding.

This is very intresting because I have heard it many times this year, and I think even here on Kutaki, in relation to Kuji (if I remeber correctly). The argument being that until the taijutsu is on a sufficient level you can´t realy learn it. That is until you are so good that you already know it.

This is an interesting concept, and one that is true for all learning, I think. Until you are ready you can´t realy learn anything.

/Micke

Posted on: 2004/10/29 5:44
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