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Re: Randori
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Quote:

MWDAndy wrote:
Quote:
Also I notice a lot of people call judo a sport and only a sport. Judo has many parts aside from the sporting side. The traditional kata offer a wide array of goshinjutsu techniques that can be very effective in the streets.


This is true to a degree. For example, Kodokan Judo does indeed cover many classical kata such as Kime no Kata, Koshiki no Kata, Ju no Kata and so on. However, the majority of non-Kodokan classes either don't teach the subject at all or have such a corrupted, misunderstood understanding of the kata that it is of no value. I did Judo for a few years (until my club began to overemphasise competitions causing a few of us to lose interest and drift away). We practiced kata occasionally and it was, bluntly, junk. The instructors had no understanding of what they were showing us and the techniques therefore were unworkable. This does seem to be the norm for non-Kodokan classes and it has IMO, reduced the practice of Judo to a sterile sport - a good sport which has many fine qualities but a sport nevertheless. There is a movement in the UK at the moment to reinvigorate the practice of Judo kata, bringing teachers across from Japan etc which I think is a good thing for the art of Judo.


I agree with you. Outside of a handful of teachers at the Kodokan there are not many teachers that fully know the kata much less know it well enough to teach it right. I was not even aware that judo had that side until I saw a Draegar book on it at Quintin Chamber's house. Most of the clubs in Hawaii are for preparing kids for competition and it was just by luck that I met an older man that knew it. From him I learned how effective judo can be and I also found that old style preWWII judo had strikes. I think anyone that doubts the effectiveness of it has not seen enough. I am not saying it is as nasty as jujutsu but it can do the job. I still treat judo as a laboratory with which to play with my jujutsu. I don't think it will answer all my questions about what works or not but it at leasts lets me know if I am going in the right direction.

Posted on: 2004/10/21 21:52
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Christopher Moon
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Re: Randori
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OK, so thinking about randori and its place in our training.

I don't personally use randori in the commonly used sense of free-sparring within my classes as I feel that the benefits are outweighed by the disbenefits. However, read this quote taken from "Warfighting" by General A M Gray of the USMC.

Quote:
Exercises should approximate the conditions of battle as much as possible; that is, they should introduce friction in the form of uncertainty, stress, disorder and opposing wills. This last characteristic is most important; only in opposed, free-play exercises can we practice the art of war. Dictated or "canned" scenarios eliminate the element of independent, opposing wills that is the essence of combat.


So while I don't think that free-sparring has a regular place in our training, I do feel that it is important to regularly get the experience of two opposing wills interacting. How can we get this within a safe training environment? Actually there's lots of ways. We're looking for anything that gives us an experience of trying to out-think and out-smart a real live, thinking human being. How about playing paintball? How about playing a game of chess? How about taking part in an online gaming tournament? These are all ways in which we can gain experience of having to out-think and out-smart another living human being or even multiple opponents. Heresy I know but you really don't have to spar to get this feeling of two opposing wills - there are other ways. Sure, playing a game of chess doesn't involve the element of danger so much but does it need to? This aspect of training is more psychological than physical I think.

I'm sure there'll be more discussion on this.

Posted on: 2004/10/22 1:06
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Hehehe...
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I feel I must reiterate why I call Ju'do' a sport. In any form it is taught, it originates from one unarmed skill of 18 which the majority of which are weapons arts. Whether it incorporates strikes or not, because it limits the contest to the realm of a fair fight.

It has it's value for teaching several base skills and spirit, but I believe it has it's limits as well.

I would also like to point out that both Mr. Duncan and I both stated in our posts that we do have Randori in our training, just not like the modern form of just sparring.



Posted on: 2004/10/22 1:36
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Re: Randori
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Quote:

MWDAndy wrote:
OK, so thinking about randori and its place in our training.

How about playing paintball?


Andrew,

It is funny that you mention paintball. I happen to enjoy paintball as a hobby. As a matter of fact I recently had a realization while playing. I come to realize that it is taijutsu on a different level. For example, we were in a heated exchange of paint and I realized that the opposing team was going to have to occupy a space to be effective against us. I quickly grabbed a couple of team members and moved into the "hole" on our flank that they desparately needed. We stopped them right there. At that point I began to look at paintball differently. It boiled down to taking the space or the shape of the attack, just like our training.

I just had to throw that in, since you mentioned paintball.


Posted on: 2004/10/22 2:50
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Re: Randori
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First of all for hachigoro's sake let me clarify my argument. Because of randori a Judoka is able to adapt himself outside his own rules. Randori and compititon Judo is frantic and chaotic in nature. Players are forced to adjust to different opponents, the stress and fatige is emmence. Therefore when an actuall combat situation comes along he is more prepared for (a) the adrenaline (b) the chaotic nature of combat.

Posted on: 2004/10/22 8:30
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Re: Randori
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Further more this is exacly the kind of respose I expected when I first posted this. Half of you are going on about how many katas you can learn if you take up judo.

Katas are not going to save you

The other half of you are going on about how you dont need to fight to simulate the feelings you recive during a fight.
Instead you recommened playing computer games on the internet and playing paintball. If this is your attitude I hope you live in a nice cosy part of the world where you will never have to face the possibiliy of combat, because if you do you are gonna panic and get wasted.
Lets get serious for a minute. A fight is not a plesant experiance. there is nothing comfortable about fighting. First of all there is the risk of great bodily harm. secondly there is the complete and utter exhustuion that you feel once the adrenaline dump goes. Thirdly there is the phycological insecurty that follows (wondering where the next attacker is?, how do i get out of here?, what should i do?)
You cant learn this shit on the computer or doing a kata

SORRY BUT YOU CANT

Posted on: 2004/10/22 8:43
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Re: Randori
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So is your point that randori provides this? I must say I am not an experienced judoka but of the people that I know very few get injured, none on a regular basis, which would indicate that the chances of great bodily harm are quite remote(if as you say randori makes up 90% of training).

The things you are talking about secondly I agree to some extent is not provided for in the average Bujinkan class, we train in a fairly relaxed manner most of the time and usually the people we train with are working to help us improve not to beat us down...however from time to time training does change.... Where do you train in NZ by the way?

I am not sure I get your point with thirdly? Randori in Judo deals with these things how?



Posted on: 2004/10/22 11:12
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Re: Randori
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Quote:

Masahiko wrote:
First of all for hachigoro's sake let me clarify my argument. Because of randori a Judoka is able to adapt himself outside his own rules. Randori and compititon Judo is frantic and chaotic in nature. Players are forced to adjust to different opponents, the stress and fatige is emmence. Therefore when an actuall combat situation comes along he is more prepared for (a) the adrenaline (b) the chaotic nature of combat.


Well that's your opinion, but remember that judo "randori" is pretty soft when compared to boxing. If you are of the belief that to survive a conflict is more about preparing yourself for the adrenaline and "chaotic nature" of combat than a study of skills - you should be stepping up your training to include a lot of boxing and/or shootfighting (NHB) training. Having a wrestle is nothing when compared to having someone try to cave the side of your head in. I have tried both and believe me that most NHB guys view grappling as the relaxed half of their training.

Obviously you are fairly young and are basing your opinions of your own experience with a local Shidoshi and a few sessions of judo at the local youth club. Many of us have "been there done that" with full contact - sport oriented fighting arts or close quarters combat systems. Remember Kano said "After you learn judo you should learn jujutsu" meaning that once you have gone through your "judo phase" you should then refine your technique through the study of real Budo. This means you can continue until your old age.

Because of your opinions my recomendation to you is to keep studying judo, train hard and even step it up with plenty of hard training in other sporting styles like boxing / kickboxing or shooto. Once you have done this for a few years then take another look at Budo Taijutsu and what it may offer you. Just to get on an internet forum and tell us about how "real fighting" is or trying to push your opinions onto other people with a lot of big talk and bravado just smells of the "virtual tough guy" to me. Talking about it amounts to nothing - you have to prove it.

Posted on: 2004/10/22 11:44
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Re: Randori
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Quote:

Masahiko wrote:
Further more this is exacly the kind of respose I expected when I first posted this. Half of you are going on about how many katas you can learn if you take up judo.

Katas are not going to save you

The other half of you are going on about how you dont need to fight to simulate the feelings you recive during a fight.
Instead you recommened playing computer games on the internet and playing paintball. If this is your attitude I hope you live in a nice cosy part of the world where you will never have to face the possibiliy of combat, because if you do you are gonna panic and get wasted.
Lets get serious for a minute. A fight is not a plesant experiance. there is nothing comfortable about fighting. First of all there is the risk of great bodily harm. secondly there is the complete and utter exhustuion that you feel once the adrenaline dump goes. Thirdly there is the phycological insecurty that follows (wondering where the next attacker is?, how do i get out of here?, what should i do?)
You cant learn this shit on the computer or doing a kata

SORRY BUT YOU CANT


I think you very much missed my point and the points of others on here.

I have never suggested that collecting judo kata will save you. I have never even suggested that judo would be satisfactory as a primary art. I think it is helpful as a supplement to other training, I also think the same about other systems. I would not rely on them 100% but they are helpful in checking your work.


Posted on: 2004/10/22 12:00
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Re: Randori
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No, excellent point hachigoro. I am just using Judo as an example of coarse the same could be said for thai or other kickboxing orientated sports. I would disagree if you think grappling (particularly joint manipulation and strangulation) is the soft way to go. But then again I would after suffering several injurys because training got a little rough.
I am not trying to be a toughguy wiseguy or any other macho names ending with guy. I am simple questioning the way most traditionalists despise randori or any other type of freesparing in favor of saying "well theoretically i would kill you if I hit you like this". <<<<
As for my dedication to training. I am very happy with Bujinkan budo taijutsu. I think it is an excellant art and one that I have alot of time for. It is certainly a very complete system, which is unfortunatly plagued with politics at all levels.

but as you recommened I use Judo as an excellant testing ground.

Those who seek the truth must accept the reality

Posted on: 2004/10/22 13:05
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