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Re: Yada !!!
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Danny wrote:

So, perhpas we are looking at the same information and coming up with different conclusions.

Of course, the 2/3, 1/3 draw is only a linguistic way of expressing things, but helpful to the layman. I dont actually think (ok,2/3........now 1/3... ok Im ready!)
I do the movements in such a way that it just feels right.


this is a standing style of shooting.
Perhaps one could call it "informal shooting."



Hello!
We may in fact be interpreting the same information in different ways .

I humbly submit the the 2/3push-1/3pull is more than a lingistic tool for conveying an idea to layman. This expression is a quote from the 'Shahokun', a writing that is considered a fundamental expression of some important aspects of modern Kyudo. This text is studied and meditated upon by Kyudoka from their first steps in the Art until their 'Final Draw'. Many Dojo recite the Shahokun (and one other text) before formal training sessions. If I recall the phrase (translated of course), it goes something like "...With 2/3 of the left hand push the string, with 1/3 of the right hand pull the bow..."

Regarding the standing form...
It is not an 'informal form'. There are moments when standing form is used for the most formal of ceremonies. A Kyudoka will study standing form, kneeling form, and several other interesting movements as they progress through their training. Have a look a the ZNKR 'Kyudo Manual' for some rather detailed descriptions of these points.

Ganbatte!

P.S. The Gif is neat! It looks as though he is indeed doing Heki Ryu.

Posted on: 2004/11/16 3:01
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Posted on: 2004/11/16 8:26
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Re: recitations
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Danny wrote:
Karl,
If that is true, (about the reciting) then there are some pretty high-ranking kyudo people here in Japan who are doing it wrong...

Also, whenever they do anything formal, there is always alot of kneeling and bowing. (kneeling and waiting in kiza in between shots)
The only times I have seen them do an all-standing style of shooting was during informal practice at the end of class.

May I ask what school of kyudo you study and where it is?
That may explain some of these differences...




Hello Danny!

If you re-read my post, you will note that I did not say that all Kyudojo recite the Shahokun before training. So, I was not saying that to do so was more or less correct. I was trying to highlight the point that the '2/3-1/3' was more than a turn of phrase used to explain the 'difficult to explain' to the layman. The various dojo where I have trained have not included a recitation of the Shahokun as a regular part of training either. But this past June, the Senior Hanshi Hachidan at Kyudo Taikai in Indiana indicated that such a recitation was a regular part of his instruction. Furthermore, he had us begin each of the four days of the seminar with a recitation of the Shahokun and the Raiki Shagi (in Japanese).

Regarding the formality of Standing versus Kneeling form, I will repeat that there a certain circumstances wherein the Standing form may be used in the most formal of ceremonies. For example, if a ceremony is to be held out-of-doors it will like be a Standing form. Also, if the archer has any physical impairments that prevent proper execution of the kneeling form, then Standing form will be used. There are certainly differing degrees of formality in shooting, but there are several factors beyond standing or kneeling that come into play. Again I respectfully refer you to the ZNKR Kyudo manual for some of the details.

Over the past number of years I have had the pleasure of training in several wonderful Kyudojo. The most influential on my training have been the Fujisawa Kyudojo, the Koshigaya Kyudojo and the Kentucky Kyudokai of the South Carolina Kyudo Renmei. My training experience has been in Ogasawara Ryu and Honda Ryu influenced ZNKR, but I have on several occasions observed Heki Ryu. There are definitely differences from Ryu to Ryu and from Dojo to Dojo, but ZNKR events downplay these differences so that we may train harmoniously together regardless of style.


Anyway, here are some websites that you (and maybe some others) will find interesting...

Ogasawar Ryu (UN-mounted form)

http://www.ogasawara-ryu.gr.jp/english/lesson/hosha/about.html

Honda Ryu (someone's training notes)

http://ca.geocities.com/stelgidopteryx/DN3.html

Heki Ryu (an interesting commentary)

http://www.netwiz.net/~eclay/translat/bishu.htm

Ganbatte!

Posted on: 2004/11/20 3:48
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Posted on: 2004/11/20 17:52
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Re: recitations
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Danny wrote:

When yopu say "koshigaya dojo" do you mean the kyudojo in a shrine in Koshigaya?
The one where Yanuma Sensei teaches and a few Bujinkan guys train ? (myself included)
If you trained there, then you did get some Heki ryu training...

It make me think that the differences are not so much particular to the school of archery, but rather particular to the specific ritual being performed...

Whaddya think of my theory ?


Hello!

I most certainly mean the 'Koshigaya Kyudojo' located on the grounds of Hisaizujinja! It is a very beautiful place to practice Kyudo, isn't it! However, I did not train under Yanuma Sensei while I was there (a matter of scheduling and prior committments), and so I did not study Heki Ryu. But you do have quite a wonderful opportunity to study Kyudo in such a lovely setting with such a well respected instructor. Ganbatte!

Regarding your theory... I suspect that the solution to the mystery will reveal itself over time with continued training. (That is the round about way of saying 'beats me! , )

Posted on: 2004/11/20 21:27
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Re: recitations
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Just to return to an earlier piece of this thread, I had a discussion with my Kyudo instructor at Sunday's class. I mentioned how we had been discussing here on Kutaki how we should try different things like taijutsu using a hand-held arrow etc. He agreed 100% and stated that he expected me to do no less! He pointed out that all martial arts must be brought to life and not just be preserved as dead images. He told me a story about a seminar he attended earlier this year. A Spanish 5th Dan archer was shouted at by his Japanese seniors and told that he looked like a pall-bearer at a funeral, his movements were just dead. Kyudo should be alive!

At Sunday's class, my instructor tried a different way of gripping the bow (tenouchi). Both his arrows went wild, missing the target completely while mine both hit. We made a light joke about it and that got us discussing again. If we're not willing to explore our art, potentially making mistakes along the way, our art is just dead form, endlessly repeated.

Posted on: 2004/11/22 20:42
_________________
Andrew K Jones

"Ultimately, we must forget technique, but forgetting about technique is not the same as never having learned it."
Hideharu Onuma
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Posted on: 2004/11/23 11:45
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