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Re: Kihon Happo
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That's very interesting. I wonder why my Shihan has decided to teach the Kihon this way? Regardless, I trust and respect his judgement, but also appreciate your willingness (Kintiiwa) to suggest an alternative perspective. Although "Kihon Happo" is referring to Eight Ways, I find that there are many "kihon" techniques that are practiced differently by different dojos (and often changing every 6-8 months within dojos for broader understanding). Thanks again.

Hold fast,

J. Ryan Ruch

Posted on: 2004/11/15 2:00
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Re: Kihon Happo
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Quote:
jryan wrote: Although "Kihon Happo" is referring to Eight Ways, I find that there are many "kihon" techniques that are practiced differently by different dojos

Here is just a thought, could it be that "Happo" in "Kihon Happo" is like "Juppo" (10 ways)in "Juppo Sessho" and "Roppo" (6 ways) in "Roppo Kuji". That is, not meaning eight ways (or ten ways and six ways), specificaly, but more every way or all ways? What are your thoughts of this interpretation?

/Micke

Posted on: 2004/11/15 5:54
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Re: Kihon Happo
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Quote:

That is, not meaning eight ways (or ten ways and six ways), specificaly, but more every way or all ways? What are your thoughts of this interpretation?


That was gently put, and yes, now that you mention it this seems definitely a more "Japanese" way of viewing these names; ultimately it makes much better sense. Thank you.

While teaching, my instructor regularly refers to moving and fighting in all directions. Like the USMC, changed their word "Retreat" into "Retrograde Action" because Retreat implies the fighting has stopped whereas the alternative is simply "fighting in a different direction."

"Happo" being more qualitative in this sense allows openness and insight, rather than restriction and insignificant repetition.

Hold Fast,

J. Ryan Ruch

Posted on: 2004/11/15 6:33
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Re: Kihon Happo
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Here's some stuff on the subject of the Kihon Happo which might shed some light on the subject. It's taken from Jack Hoban's book "Ninpo - Living And Thinking As A Warrior", page 146.

Quote:
The kihon happo, or "all-direction fundamentals", are the inspirational source for the fighting method eventually employed by a ninja in combat. Actually the term, itself, has been rather misleading to the Westerner. In Japanese, the term kihon means fundamental, while the word happo is derived from the word hachi, which means "eight". When the "ha" becomes "happo" it ceases to mean eight and becomes "all-directional". Although the kihon happo is sometimes taught as a series of eight exercises (which further compounds the misunderstanding), it may be more useful to think of them as that set of all individually distinguishable techniques, be they kicks, punches, throws, or immobilizations, that we can practice to gain taijutsu proficiency.

When I first heard the term kihon happo, I was looking for eight techniques. However, when I asked the various senior teachers to show them to me, they each had a different version. Believe me, there are more than eight. Including variations, there are an infinite number of them.


For what it's worth, this is the basic set of techniques that I teach as the "kihon happo" although I vary each one to incorporate the various strikes, chokes, locks, throws, escapes etc. as listed in the TCJRnM I use these eight as the bones and then change the actual technical details to put the flesh on the bones.

Kihon Happo (KH) Ichimonji
KH Hicho
KH Jumonji
KH Omote Gyaku Dori
KH Ura Gyaku Dori
KH Oni Kudaki Dori
KH Musha Dori
KH Ganseki Nage

These are the techniques and I use the "fuel source" of kamae and the "engine" of Sanshin no Kata to power them. Just my thinking on the subject today - maybe tomorrow's thinking will be different because yesterday's certainly was.

Posted on: 2004/11/15 21:10
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Re: Kihon Happo
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Interesting, MWDAndy, thanks for the input!
Incedently my Shidoshi teaches Kihon Happo the same as you do, and also lays a big emphasis on Sanshin no Kata, perhaps even more so, than on Kihon Happo.

/Micke

Posted on: 2004/11/15 22:00
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Re: Kihon Happo
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Quote:

MWDAndy wrote:
For what it's worth, this is the basic set of techniques that I teach as the "kihon happo" .....
Kihon Happo (KH) Ichimonji
KH Hicho
KH Jumonji
KH Omote Gyaku Dori
KH Ura Gyaku Dori
KH Oni Kudaki Dori
KH Musha Dori
KH Ganseki Nage


But Kihon is kihon and even though they can be expanded out to included infinate variations I think it is VERY IMPORTANT to understand the basic forms too. In Nakadai-sensei's dojo the basic form is practiced EVERY session.

If I change the Kihon to a list that I create myself and calling that the "Kihon Happo" is failing my duty as a Shidoshi.

Ichimonji
Hicho
Jumonji
Omote Kote Gata
Ura Kote Gata
Omote Gyakku Ken Sabaki Gata (Omote Gyaku against grab and punch attack)
Ude Jime Ashi Ori Gata (Musha Dori)
Ganseki Gata

Soke put out the DVD "Kobudo no Kihon" so there is really no excuse now for Shidoshi to teach the basic forms incorrectly.

"Ninpo - Living and Thinking as a Warrior" is a pretty crap book and certainly not something I would recommend anyone use as a reference for Budo Taijutsu. A lot of these sorts of books from the eighties were published by people with little understanding of what they were writing about at the time. A guy who was training me bought Jack Hoban's video series which did show him being much further down the track .. for example the correct "basic form" of Kihon Happo is presented there.

This just shows that Jack has come a LOT further than his presentation of the Kihon Happo in that old book.

Posted on: 2004/11/15 22:03
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Re: Kihon Happo
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I would have to agree that Jack's book "Ninpo" is indeed an old book (noise of frantic rummaging in bag to see where I've put it!) - it was published in 1988 and sure, Jack's understanding of Kihon Happo as well as many other subjects has found greater depth since then. But just because something is old doesn't mean it has no value. I think the book is still worth looking at, if only because it provides a glimpse into the Bujinkan Dojo as it was then. And I personally feel the book provides food for thought - of course not everyone will see everything the same because we're all different ("I'm not" - that's for the Monty Python fans out there ). Also, as I've pointed out in a previous thread here on Kutaki, many of Hatsumi sensei's books were published back in the 1980s and even earlier and yet we are still instructed to read them - his thinking and technique has moved on since then too so maybe we shouldn't be reading his early books and watching his early videos? Doesn't the foreword by Hatsumi sensei in the book "Ninpo Wisdom For Life say something about this? I haven't got it with me and so can't provide a quote.

As for the listing of the Kihon Happo you give, I've seen this one too as well as many many others over the years, a great many of them coming from Hatsumi sensei's materials and the majority of them are different (different techniques, different names, different kanji etc). Which one is correct? Certainly the names I use for mine may not be the exact traditional names used for some of them but they're the ones I've been shown the most over the years so I just stuck with them. Maybe we should go back to Kihon Happo Number One, Kihon Happo Number Two etc again to avoid confusion?

Hachigoro said:-
Quote:
Soke put out the DVD "Kobudo no Kihon" so there is really no excuse now for Shidoshi to teach the basic forms incorrectly.


Certainly "Kobudo no Kihon" is a superb video/DVD (my copy is out on loan to a student at the moment) and everyone should get hold of a copy, along with "Budo Wa Nan Desu Ka?". I also agree that it is a superb source for helping us to understand the Kihon Happo concept. But this is just today's reference source. I wonder what tomorrow's reference source will look like and what'll be in it?

To quote Dazza - "Oops! There goes another point!"

Posted on: 2004/11/15 23:17
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Hideharu Onuma
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Re: Kihon Happo
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Quote:
To quote Dazza - "Oops! There goes another point!"


Dazza . . . or Britney?

; )


Posted on: 2004/11/16 1:29
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Re: Kihon Happo
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Well folks, in a round about way... very round about... my question was answered.

Contrary to popular opinion, I have made some rather potent connections to the Buj and am enjoying my "trip" so far.

Thanks again for your service!




Posted on: 2005/5/9 7:42
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Re: Kihon Happo
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Someya Sensei taught a small group of us the Kihon Happo he stated was taught to him by Soke. The list was as follows:

Ichimonji
Hicho
Jumonji
Omote Gyaku
Omote Gyaku Ken Sabaki
Ura Gyaku
Musha Dori
Ganseki Nage

He stated that Oni Kudaki was added by Manaka Sensei and that it is from Takagi Yoshin Ryu, but some people add it to their versions. Kihon Happo appears to be very adaptable, so I guess there’s no rigid way to do it unless you are going by the Gyokko Ryu method.

Cheers,

Posted on: 2005/5/9 12:11
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