Since there are few different ideas of Kukis' Happo system, it would be nice if someone finally explains which Jutsu comprise this system.

If you are talking about Bujinkan, in Masaaki Hatsumi is Soke of Kukishinden ryu Happo >BIKENJUTSU<. You would probably like to know what bikenjutsu means...then you would have many answers to stupid questions!

Well, since we���re talking about stupid things like this, let me show you some ���even more stupid stuff���!
Kukishin Ryu Happo Bikenjutsu is just wrong romanization. It should actually be Kukishin Ryu Happo Hikenjutsu because the words Happo and Hiken do not comprise a compound noun. If it was Kukishin Ryu Happobikenjutsu only then it would be O.K.
Happo and Hiken are actually two separate systems. I believe that these were originally referred to as Happojutsu (eight fields of (martial) arts/all arts/all aspects of (martial) arts) and Hikenjutsu (secrets of swordsmanship). In time the Kukis merged them and they are practiced together ever since. They are probably called Happo Hikenjutsu instead of Kukishinden Ryu Happojutsu to Hikenjutsu.

Happo(jutsu) comprises:

1. Taijutsu, Hichojutsu, Nawanage;
2. Kappojutsu, Jutaijutsu;
3. Yarijutsu, Naginatajutsu;
4. Bojutsu, Jojutsu, Hanbojutsu;
5. Senbannage, Tokenjutsu;
6. Kajutsu, Suijutsu;
7. Chiku jo, Gunryaku Heiho;
8. Onshijutsu, Hensojutsu.

Hikenjutsu (secrets of swordsmanship/the art of secret swords/secret swordsmanship) comprises:

1. Ken- Swords
2. Kodachi- Short swords
3. Jutte- Iron truncheons.

Well, if you can recollect that stupid question, it was about the first table of Jutsu since there are some differences regarding arts that it is compiled of �Ķ For example, here, in the first row we have ���Tantojutsu, Hichojutsu, Nawanage��� but however I found some references to ���Hicho, Karate, Koppojutsu���. This reminds me of something I���ve read in the Essence of Ninjutsu- The Nine Traditions by Hatsumi Sensei on page 20: ����ĶT (Takamatsu): Quite right. There is a rock called Tojin-iwa or Chinese rock over there. I hear that every prayer one offers to the rock is answered. This rock is also called kuji no iwa or rock of kuji. Ninja must have learned and mastered hicho karate koppojutsu from Mother Nature there.���

So are this Kukishin Ryu���s ���Hicho, Karate, Koppojutsu��� the same as ���Hicho Karate Koppojutsu��� that Takamatsu Sensei refers to and is the other one art for itself?
There are at least three versions of Happo system and I am interested in the original/right one.

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I'm not sure if you like the fact, but at least in the Bujinkan, "秘剣" is pronounced as "Biken" even when it is used alone. That's why the theme for this year is called "Roppoukuji-no Biken", not "... Hiken".

I'll agree only if Hatsumi Sensei refers to it like this!

You sure leave nothing out. Discussing right and wrong romanization with Ohashi sensei ?
What about kukisinden ?

EDIT: I find the ...biken version a lot more fluent than the ..hiken. The mouth doesn��t have to work that much in terms of muscles and tongue movements. It��s easier to mumble.

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LOL. Based on another post you wrote (though I'll admit I didn't really read it through) I thought you actually knew some Japanese. That's pretty weak though.

To be clear, it's not an issue of romanization.

"Even more stupid stuff" indeed... and personally, I think you should be careful arguing with someone about his native language...

Kabutoki,I'm sorry if you guys have misunderstood me.My apologies to George (sorry about not refering to you as Mr. Ohashi or something like that since I have no idea about your age or credentials and people tend to use just plain names on this kind of forums),too.I'm not crazy to argue about George's Japanese! From what I see,he lives in Japan!
I understood that the point of our argument was about how other people interpret that particular term.I have seen "Happo Hikenjutsu" all over,some ten years ago.However,for the past few years I only come across "Happo Bikenjutsu".Honestly,I couldn't care less about this issue...I didn't bring up that subject and this certainly wasn't the topic! Why do you guys have to be so complicated...Any inquiery I make turns into something completely different and pointless!
Fukuto,I really haven't said even once that I know Japanese!I've particularly stated that I'm just using software for translating...Heck,I'm still waiting for some help about translating the text about Iga no Ran in the Japanese language section!(I was hoping George would help... )
I was talking about Romaji,referring to the way Westerners alphabetically interpret this term but it seems that you've somehow (??!) got the idea that I think Romaji phonetically influenced the term.Whatever your main idea was I suggest you explain it to me so I wouldn't make the same mistake again.
However,please let's get back to the subject...I just need a simple answer about this.Which of these three charts of Happo is correct:

1. Taijutsu, Hichojutsu, Nawanage. (Moving the body), (Leaping), (Rope throwing)
2. Karate, Koppojutsu, Jutaijutsu. (Unarmed Combat), (Breaking bones), (Throwing)
3. Sojutsu, Naginatajutsu. (Spear fighting), (Halberd fighting)
4. Bojutsu, Jojutsu, Hanbojutsu. (Stick (180 cm) fighting), (Stick (120 cm) fighting), (Stick (90 cm) fighting)
5. Senban Nage, Tokenjutsu, Shurikenjutsu. (Senban throwing), (Blade throwing), (Throwing stars)
6. Kajutsu, Suijutsu. (Fire and explosives), (Watertraining)
7. Chiku Jo, Gunryaku Heiho. (Fortress design & penetr.), (Military tactics)
8. Onshinjutsu, Hensojutsu. (Hiding away), (Use of disguice)

1. Gunryaku, TenmonChimon.(Battle strategies), (Study of weather)
2. Jojutsu, Hanbojutsu. (Stick (120cm) fighting), (Stick (90cm) fighting)
3. Rokushaku-bo, Ma Ai. (Stick (180cm) fighting), (Distancing)
4. Naginata, Bisento. (Halberd fighting), (Large Halberd)
5. Kodachi, Juttehutsu. (Short Sword), (Metal Truncheon)
6. Bajutsu, Suijutsu (Horsemanship), (Water Techniques)
7. Shuriken, Senbanjutsu, (Throwing Stars), (Throwing blades)
8. Sojutsu (Spearfighting)

1. Gunryaku Heiho, Tenmon Chimon.(Battle strategies), (Study of weather)
2. Jojutsu, Hanbojutsu. (Stick (120cm) fighting), (Stick (90cm) fighting)
3. Rokushaku-bo, Ma Ai. (Stick (180cm) fighting), (Distancing)
4. Kodachi, Juttehutsu. (Short Sword), (Metal Truncheon)
5. Shoto, Jutte. (Short sword, (Metal truncheon)
6. Bajutsu, Suijutsu. (Horsemanship), (Water Techniques)
7. Shuriken, Senbanjutsu. (Throwing Stars), (Throwing blades)
8. Onshinjutsu. (Invisibilty techniques)

"Which of these three charts of Happo is correct?"

er . . . they all are?

I thought they changed from era to era depending on what specializations the ryu needed to focus on at the time.


"Why do you guys have to be so complicated...Any inquiery I make turns into something completely different and pointless!"

You know them silly ninjers and their secrecy and misinformation tactics! :p

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Hello All!

One of the reasons that seemingly simple questions end up with complicated answers may be that the issue has more 'layers' than the questioner may be aware of. And it just so happens that 'Happo Biken' is one of those multi-layered concepts (Kihon Happo, Juppo Sessho, Roppo Kuji no Biken are other examples). If one limits oneself to the most superficial translation then one is going to miss the point. Furthermore, some of the more subtle interpretations of these 'phrases' are not well suited to discussion on internet forums. Not so much because they are difficult to express in words (though sometimes they are), but because (in my opinion)such things are best shared with trusted friends and colleagues as they tend to touch upon the deeply personal (read spiritual) side of training.

Regarding 'which of the three is correct?'...
Let go of your attachment to this type of question, it will lead you to 'misunderstanding'.

'Happo' doesn't necessarily mean 'eight ways' and 'biken' doesn't necessarily refer to the sword your thinking of.

Ganbatte!