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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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yes, but until you're at that level I think its the best idea to just focus on the system... on taijutsu!

Go and ask someone who's been training for a long time "what school 'that' was from"... and they'll say "don't worry about it just keep training"...
trust me I made that mistake once... at a seminar... wanted to ask about something completely different but forgot what I was gonna say at the last question and just asked that again...lol

Posted on: 2005/4/16 14:43
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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HEHEH reminded me of a situation after Noguchi-sensei's training in 1996...

We did a tech that I though might have been from (Hontai) Takagiyôshin-ryû and after the class asked Noguchi-sensei about it. He gave me a look and said "cross-stepping... Kotô-ryû".

All I could do was nod

-------------
Ari Julku
Shidôshi
Bujinkan Yamazu Dôjô

Posted on: 2005/4/16 15:10
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Quote:
Shiden Fudo Ryu is the first school that Takamatsu learned. As far as I know, it is ninjutsu.


Really? I've never heard of this. Is there any specific documentation to sustantiate this?

As far as I know the only "Ninjutsu" Ryu-Ha in the Bujinkan is Togakure Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu and Gyokushin Ryu.

From what I understand, Momochi Sandayu was supposed to be Soke to both Koto & Gyokko Ryu as well as Togakure Ryu. But these Ryu ha were brought together by him.

I'm not a historian, so please correct me if I have misunderstood the history.

Posted on: 2005/4/19 9:23
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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you should do some research to substantiate your claims...

its quite simple to search for information on specific schools.... or to follow the grandmasters through the ages and see which schools came together under one master and at which point.... then research that master.

the problem with history is that is had to be written down and then interpretted... If you look at the simple things that are going on today you'll see many areas where no one is ever certain. look at things like genbukan and jenekan.... whos to say that stuff never happened too?

gotta find some good info where they've traced back all the info.

Posted on: 2005/4/19 14:28
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Quote:
NightCrawler wrote:
As you all know, there are 9 schools in the bujinkan. Two of them were not initialy ninjutsu schools. I am refering to Kukishiden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu.


From what I know they aren't Ninjutsu schools today either.

Posted on: 2005/4/20 3:02
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Hi,

Are you suggesting that the 7 schools are not ninjutsu? That is contrary to all that I was told for many years...


Posted on: 2005/4/25 22:55
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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I can hear a can of worms being grabbed....

Which schools would be NINJUTSU, then?

I remember way back when in the late 80's we pondered on all these different schools listed in Hatsumi-sôke's books, and how were they tied to Ninjutsu? Never figured them out, just though "Well, it just must be the Ninja-way of doing for example Jûtaijutsu... But mostly we are doing Togakure-ryû, right!? Right..."

-----------------
Ari Julku
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Posted on: 2005/4/25 23:11
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Quote:

NightCrawler wrote:
Hi,

Are you suggesting that the 7 schools are not ninjutsu? That is contrary to all that I was told for many years...



No we are suggesting that 6 of them are not ninja schools

I dont know where you have been told that all 9 are ninjutsu ryu but 6 of them are not.

Togakure Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu and Kumogakure Ryu are according to all reliable sources I have seen are Ninjutsu. Even hatsumi sensei himself has said this I believe.

the others are not Ninjutsu

Takgai Yoshin Ryu - this is a Jutaijutsu ryu, aka Jujutsu
Shindenfudo ryu - this is a dakentaijutsu and also a Jutaijutsu ryu
Gikan Ryu and Koto Ryu are both Koppojutsu ryu
Gyokko ryu this is a Kosshijutsu ryu.
Kukishinden Ryu - this is a sogo bujutsu ryu.


just because ryu such as Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu are in some way connected to a Ninja school (Togakure ryu) is does not make them a Ninja Ryu, or a school of Ninjutsu.

Ninjutsu can be found in many od samurai schools as an auxillary art, just because they have it listed and they did or do study it, then this does not make them a Ninja ryu.

One reason hatsumi sensei changed the Bujinkan name from Ninpo Taijutsu to Budo Taijutsu was so that it would encompass the other 6 arts which were not ninpo.

Posted on: 2005/4/25 23:15
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Kotaro,

I think you have a very limited viewpoint... but you are entitled to it. I would caution anyone reading this though to do some research and not limit yourself to the popular viewpoint that the Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu and Gikan Ryu are not Ninjutsu ryu ha.

Also please do not get confused, there are multiple Shinden Fudo Ryus, not one with both Daken and Jutaijutsu in the same transmission.

Posted on: 2005/4/25 23:31
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Hi,

I was told that they are all ninjutsu schools apart from Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu.

We are all entitled to believe the source we want.

Regards,


Posted on: 2005/4/26 0:10
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