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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Hmm, maybe here is a case of slight "term confusion"?

Ninjutsu, Ninpô, Ninja - they might not be so easily "interchangeable"...

In Bujinkan Dôjô we have schools for Ninpô (3 traditions), yes, schools connected to Ninja-family (3 traditions), yes, Ninjutsu, hmm... Me, I'm not so sure on that (yet)... As for the rest of the nine (3 traditions) - connections to the other two "trios" exist in their histories, yes.

Also, a schools tradition does not change according other schools the current Sôke might hold... It could go either way, right? All schools might have become Jûjutsu, neh?

My view (according my current information)

-----------------
Ari Julku
Shidôshi
Bujinkan Yamazu Dôjô

Posted on: 2005/4/26 1:39
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Quote:
NightCrawler wrote:
Hi,

I was told that they are all ninjutsu schools apart from Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu. The two later became ninjutsu when Takamatsu Sensei became soke of those schools.


If Takamatsu changed them, than a "New" lineage would start and Hatsumi Sensei would be the 1st Soke in that linenage...such is not the case.

As far as the whole "ninjustu" thing back in teh 70's-80's... This is what I believe happened:

1) Steve Hayes used it as a marketing tool to become the authority and make some $$$
2) Hatsumi Sensei road the wave and gave the people what they where asking for-Kyojutsu...I mean ninjutsu. This allowed him to dedicate his life completely to the arts which were given to him by Takamatsu Sensei by being able to survive on a Bujinkan salary.

Later, all the "Ninjas" matured and Hatsumi Sensei was able to share the real "Budo" taijutsu, because most people were now looking to become more like Hatsumi Sensei, so their eyes weren't as focused on "The Ninja Master" but rather on Soke Masaaki Hatsumi,PhD.

Since then, this man has been an inspiration to all of us and most of the people who study him, don't care too much anymore about becoming a "Ninja" but rather how to become a good human being through the Martial way as well as become proficient in the traditions which Hatsumi Sensei has exposed us to.

But if you want to become a "Ninja" than it would be a better shortcut (and you get good benifits and pay) to join the military and learn reconisance (Sp?), a Navy seal, Green Beret, etc. I believe that these are modern day "ninja" with the skills needed for "Ninja" like activities.

Me, I just want to become proficient in these arts and hopefully be able to pass it down to someone else who loves it just as much as I do.

The questions isn't "Who wants to be a Ninja" but rather "Who needs to be a Ninja"?

Anyway, if you look at some of the stuff from "Togakure Ryu" it's pretty funny!

Quote:
NightCrawler wrote:

We are all entitled to believe the source we want.


It's not about what we believe, but rather what is the "TRUTH"!

Posted on: 2005/4/26 4:46
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Hi,

I disagree with most of what you said Mr. Franco, but your story is interesting nonetheless...

Ninjutus (or what you will) is much more than guerilla warfare and espionage...

You talk as if koryus do not evolve in time... I believe they are alive, and that they are influenced by their sokes, at least some of them... they have evolved to become what we know of them... so, Takamatsu OSensei could very well have added the "ninja spice" to the other non-ninja schools...

How to you know that the TRUTH as you call it, is actually the TRUTH? I prefer to believe that my sources are good than to think that I know THE truth.

Anyways, it's entertaining!

Posted on: 2005/4/26 5:04
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Quote:

NightCrawler wrote:
Hi,

I disagree with most of what you said Mr. Franco, but your story is interesting nonetheless...

Ninjutus (or what you will) is much more than guerilla warfare and espionage...

You talk as if koryus do not evolve in time... I believe they are alive, and that they are influenced by their sokes, at least some of them... they have evolved to become what we know of them... so, Takamatsu OSensei could very well have added the "ninja spice" to the other non-ninja schools...

How to you know that the TRUTH as you call it, is actually the TRUTH? I prefer to believe that my sources are good than to think that I know THE truth.

Anyways, it's entertaining!


Enlighten me on what Ninjutsu is please.

Yes, Koryu do evolve with time, but at the same time they are lineages. And the lineages are what are passed down. The reason for so many lineages is because some had a different idea as to how to win. So if this was the case and Takamatsu Sensei took a lineage and made it into a Ninjutsu lineage I think he would have labeled it "Takagi Yoshin Ryu Ninjutsu"...

You said that "We are entitled to believe what ever sources we want". I wrote that it's not what we believe but rather the the truth that is the important thing.

I am the first to say tha I am not a historian. But I cannot find any sources which defend your theories. But if you can prove to me that what you say is true, than I will be the first to say "I was wrong".

So far all you have saud is random "blahbidy blah" with nothing to support it. Not to say that you don't know the history but I would like to see the supporting info. cause I'm really interested!

Posted on: 2005/4/26 7:28
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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personally in a simplified way...

I say:
Taijutsu is the physical techniques
Nin is the mental part


Ninjutsu has techniques... but I think of ninjutsu as being a way of thinking, I think that it is these teachings which enable us to think differently. These techniques are not "cheap/cheating" I am fighting for my survival! And if I were in a situation where I wouldn't use these "cheap/cheating" techniques than I shouldn't be fighting should I?

Just my simple way of classifying things... to me ninjutsu means survival and doing whatever is necessary and whatever will give you the upper hand.

Posted on: 2005/4/26 14:22
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“He who seeks knowledge begins with humbleness”, Buju Banton
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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...again, here maybe - the "Ninpô" and "Ninjutsu"; can they be used in place of one another? Though, we've all seen pictures of writings passed from takamatsu-sensei that has the Kanji for "Ninjutsu" instead of "Ninpô", but "Ninpô" is what Hatsumi-sôke uses...

Having not seen all of Togakure-ryû (or almost anything from the other two Ninpô schools), it seems to be clearly more "hô" than "jutsu", presenting more "Nin"-ideology than actual "Nin"-techniques. Naturally, the ideas are presented in technical manner, but still, what those techniques - as techniques - teach, is more "hô" than "jutsu".... To me, anyway.

But, as I said, don't know that much about Togakure-ryû (either).

-------------
Ari Julku
Shidôshi
Bujinkan Yamazu Dôjô

Posted on: 2005/4/26 17:06
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Hi,

Here is my understanding:

1- koryu = traditional school

2- Thus, Koryu is a generic term. Ninjutsu, is a way of doing, or a type of koryu.


Posted on: 2005/4/26 22:43
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Sorry boys, but nobodys answered my question regarding how you came up with the theory that all of the Bujinkans 9 Ryu-Ha are deemed "Ninjutsu" by Takamatsu Sensei, Hatsumi Sensei or whomever. So as far as I can tell it's pure speculation.

As far as ninjutsu not being shown I disagree. We have been shown kata/waza from Togakure Ryu taijutsu and Biken. Hatsumi Sensei even made a video on these two densho as well.

I believe that he always tells us things which are "ninjutsu" oriented. As Shiraishi Sensei would put it "Sneaky technique, very sneaky technique".

Posted on: 2005/4/27 2:58
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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Hi,

So, do you really think that "true ninja techniques" can be bought on a VHS? The "real" ones...They must be very "secret"...

I believe that way of thinking comes from the Hayes Era, where he made people believe that you could learn Ninjutsu through VHS, books, his books!!!, and one or two of his seminars paid a great price...

How does this reconcile with the history of the art??? I naively believe that you had to find a master and follow him...

Regards,







Posted on: 2005/4/27 3:20
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Re: Togakure Ryu,Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu
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I have noticed that in some of SKH books that he shows the techniques but the postures are not perfect like a low level students actually, and He has stressed in most of his books that you must find a qualified instructor to get the Proper Training. JACK HOBAN also does this false posturing in his books. I have not seen any of the New DVD/Vhs that have come out lately advertising the home black belt courses but I suspect that it is much the same as the books. I have even seen video that was purposly shot at the wrong angles to mask the true essense of the techniques. Any movement can be captured on film and duplicated but the energies that transpire between combatants can not be captured on film only felt. I am sure we that have been in training for a long time can recall some of those moments of apifiny when,we realized that we were the only trainee to get the true essense of the technique because WE were the uke. My instructor use to tell me..."ultimately, the uke knows all" Because Soke is who he is, he can make a movement ninjutsu. Therefore I say, "in my opinion"...Yes, All of the 9 ryu are Ninjutsu. As far as the Sokes other arts, They may not have started out ninjutsu but after he embodied them..they became ninjutsu. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.
LANTZ

Posted on: 2005/4/27 7:30
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