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Re: What is Bikenshin Ryu ?
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Hi,

I am wondering. When I read these pieces of information that so kindly are offered to us in need of advise or guidance I cant help but wonder,

Does anyone actualy realy know anything about these things? I mean like pointed out before we all use the same sources, the same links and books with the same contradicting information. Those of us that actualy read and speak Japanese have a small advantage of going a bit closer to the source but still get nothing in return.

So when people make statements like "it was so and so" or "A never did meet or do this with B" is that an actual researched fact that you came to believe as true and trustworthy enough to decide to educate others on it, or is it all a way of expressing personal views based on personal hopes and believes without any thorough understanding of the matter at hand?

I am not talking to anyone in particular and not even specific to this thread, but I wonder if those that educate here are actualy educated themself in these matters?

for if the majority is not; then all we do seems to confuse the issues and make issues all the more difficult to comprehend and understand without adding anything constructive to the discussions at hand.

Again I am just wondering if the endless discussions on unverifiable facts is done by verfiably knowledgable people.

Ps, I am not English speaking so please forgive if I spell things oddly!

Posted on: 2005/7/8 17:06
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Re: What is Bikenshin Ryu ?
Kutaki Postmaster
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My name is Sean Askew
Bujinkan member for 20+ years
-lived and trained in Japan with Soke for 11 years.
I read, write and speak Japanese.
Graduated in 1995 from Sophia University (Jochi Daigaku), Tokyo Japan with a B.A. in Japanese Language and History (Hikaku Bunka).

My comments can be verified in the Daijiten I mentioned earlier. The book is in Japanese and if you want edition information you can e-mail me at bkrninpo@aol.com

The lineage for Ishitani's Togakure Ryu is not completely shown but a good portion of it is. Other than that I guess my comments can be verified by anyone that is still training in Japan with Soke.

Since the menkyo kaiden of Ishitani Soke is easily verifiable (the lineage listed was submitted by Takamatsu Sensei to the editor of the book) I tend to think that the Bikenshin is a combination of Toda Soke's Ninpo heritage and the Kukishin Den Happo Biken of Ishitani's family.

Again Harada San I do believe that the Bikenshin was not a Ryu-ha but I think it would be best if you ask Soke when you are back in Japan. Please let me know what you find out.

Sean Askew
Bujinkan Kokusai Renkoumyo
www.onimenkai.org




Posted on: 2005/7/8 22:07
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Sean Askew
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The fact is that....
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Quote:

Peter_Carlsson wrote:
One of the reasons to faulty information might be faulty translations.

Quote:

Tamatora wrote:
From this knowledge, I felt an original source of this information is mistranslation.


Exactly.

Toda (Shinryuuken) sensei was known as a master of Bikenjutsu and that's why he was called "Biken Shinryuuken".

Yes, I asked Soke today.

Posted on: 2005/7/9 1:19
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Re: The fact is that....
Kutaki Postmaster
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Quote:

George_Ohashi wrote:

Toda (Shinryuuken) sensei was known as a master of Bikenjutsu and that's why he was called "Biken Shinryuuken".

Yes, I asked Soke today.


George, thank you for asking to Hatsumi sensei. That is exactly what I felt. And also I got a PM from Europe who has same conclusion.

The reason why I post it here is to warn them who put the misinformation about this without verifying it.

Sean, I also have "Bugei Ryu Ha Daijiten" and I read Toda-sensei died when he was about age 90 at Meiji 41,1908, and Takamatsu sensei was age about 20 at that time. If this is true, he had been training 11 years under his sensei. That is all information I can share at here.

Posted on: 2005/7/9 3:01
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Re: The fact is that....
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Joji san,

Thank you for your help.
Can you do us a favor???

The next time you are in class can you ask Soke if Bikenshin was the name he used for a specific Ryu Ha or was this simply what he called his teachings gathered from several Ryu-Ha?

It is funny that you mention he was known as so and so. But I have only heard this from Soke or in the lineage documents that are published from Takamatsu Sensei's submissions to the editors of such Ryu Ha books.

Do you know if there are any sources at all that actually list Toda sensei's name in any way?

Mr. Tanemura who has done extensive research into the history of our Ryu Ha even before he left the Bujinkan in the mid 80's does not seem to have any evidence that Toda Soke even ever existed.

This tends to make me think that the Toda family name was their Ninpo family name. In society I would think he had a completely different name. What do you think???

If Takamatsu Sensei's grandfather truly was a ninja in the early 1800's he would have been very active in covert activities in Korea and China. Correct???

This seems to be the case with all other historical records of true ninja of the period or even people involved in "shinobi" type activities.
I am sure Japan had some kind of clandestine training for it's soldiers before the famed Nakano school in Tokyo. At this point I think it is impossible to ever know due to the nature of the training and activities.

Anyway this type of talk is fun but I too do wish we had some kind of reliable source of information to go on in regards to the validity of our Ryu Ha.

For now I only keep training and "feel" the truth from the lessons Soke gave us.

Sean Askew
Bujinkan Kokusai Renkoumyo
www.onimenkai.org






Posted on: 2005/7/9 3:16
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Sean Askew
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Re: The fact is that....
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Harada San,

I also have a copy that shows this being the case. This was an earlier edition.
A later edition shows that Takamatsu Sensei was born 4 years after Toda's death.

If you would like I can copy the information and e-mail it to you.

Hatsumi Sensei told me personally in an interview that I have taped that Takamatsu Sensei started training with Toda Sensei around 9 or 10 years old and that Toda Sensei died 4 years later with his head in Takamatsu Sensei's lap.

Similar to the story with Ishitani Sensei.

This is a perfect example of what we are discussing.

What is the truth???

I would like Soke to clarify it for everyone if he even knows himself. I hope to ask this when I am there later this year.


Sean Askew
Bujinkan Kokusai Renkoumyo
www.onimenkai.org

Posted on: 2005/7/9 3:21
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Sean Askew
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Re: The fact is that....
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Quote:

SeanAskew wrote:
I also have a copy that shows this being the case. This was an earlier edition.
A later edition shows that Takamatsu Sensei was born 4 years after Toda's death.


According to information I have read, it's the other way around. In 1969 years edition, Toda Shinryuken died Meiji 30 at the age of 73, and in 1978 years edition, he died Meiji 40 at the age of 90.

But, then of course, "those" who know, says that earlier editions were more correct and later editions were "corrected" to comply with the wishes of the headmasters of the schools.



Quote:
Hatsumi Sensei told me personally in an interview that I have taped that Takamatsu Sensei started training with Toda Sensei around 9 or 10 years old and that Toda Sensei died 4 years later with his head in Takamatsu Sensei's lap.

Similar to the story with Ishitani Sensei.

This is a perfect example of what we are discussing.

What is the truth???


Kuden

I think there are things we just have to accept as they are, because it will not be possible to verify them with general acknowledged history.

Other things might fall inte place in the future (or not). Yesterday, at least I found out that one person behind one of the names I have had for someone connected to the kobusho actually existed. And I found them with the kanji...have found out that romanized japanese is not enough....there are two much possibilites for mistakes. For example:

is it 秘剣真竜軒 (hiken shinryuken) or 秘剣心流 (bikenshin ryu) or someone that heard 秘剣真竜軒 and mistakenly thought it was 秘剣心流剣?! (I don't know japanese, so please correct any mistakes). But that's the reason why I would like to see more of the kanji to the names.

Next....I have a friend living in Japan who says he actually saw a densho for sale...Togakure ryu jujutsu.
May it be that our Togakure ryu ninjutsu are only a smaller part of a greater school? Are there someone who knows more about this?

And it would be nice to know if Toda actually have existed????

Best regards

Peter Carlsson
Malmö Taijutsuklubb - Bujinkan Dojo
Sweden







Posted on: 2005/7/9 8:47
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Re: The fact is that....
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Quote:

SeanAskew wrote:
The next time you are in class can you ask Soke if Bikenshin was the name he used for a specific Ryu Ha or was this simply what he called his teachings gathered from several Ryu-Ha?


Neither of them. There is not a word like "Bikenshin". It's just a mistranslation of his nickname "秘剣真龍軒".

As for other points you mentioned here, I understand what you mean, and I'm also curious. But please wait for a while because I don't want to bother Soke about historical questions so often. Of course you can ask him directly if you have a chance. It's always good to communicate with him, right?


PS. For your information.

"I heard that Takamatsu sensei's teacher Toda Shinryuken sensei quit the headmaster position of a budo school when Lord Ii, Chief Minister of the Shogun, was inaugurated and traveled around the Kinki District. The densho does not state the reason he quit his position (The original Japanese version of this part means "The densho says it is not clear why he quit..." -- Ohashi) but I believe I understand. He probably thought fighting would break out and that it made no sense for Japanese people to fight against each other.
Budo for dissension is a misuse of lessons. Apparently, he wanted to teach us this fact. Therefore, he did not run away from the current of his times (the passage of time). He must have done that because he understood his community (the passage of time)."
(p.169 of "Ninpo : Wisdom for Life")

Posted on: 2005/7/9 8:49
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Re: The fact is that....
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Hello everybody,

I would very humbly put my two cents here, drifting maybe a little but off-topic...

What's more important about truth?

I don't think it is truth per se, but the reason why sometimes we are not told the truth. Most commonly it's a problem of our understanding.
Sometimes it's a problem of etiquette, maturity, competence, malformed question, whatsoever... Maybe it's because there are some problem with the source outside bjk. I personally will never trust what the bugei ryuha daijiten states about our very own systems (i.e. everything but takagi yoshin ryu and kukishin ryu).

I guess there are so many things 99,99% of us will never know about our traditions, expecially historical aspects, densho contents, facts about people... AT least nine times more than any other Ryu-ha...

take care,

p.

Posted on: 2005/7/9 9:04
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Paolo Rossi
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Re: The fact is that....
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Quote:

paolo_italy wrote:
does anyone have ever seen a trusted japanese source with "bikenshin ryu" written in?


Or, where was the name "Bikenshin ryu" used for the first time? If we can find the first document/place, we'll know who translated it from what.

Posted on: 2005/7/9 9:11
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