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Re: Offended or find the issue silly - also why not to reveal details.
Kutaki Postmaster
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Ah well this is better than TV.

And the quote function gives me a headache so I will try it this way.

First, an assumption of my definition of survive was made. You have no idea how I define survive. It is a wide and varied defintion.

As to a hunderd year ago that was not a reference to the level of violence only to the cultural perception of violence and how that cutural perception may result in different impacts on the human psyche if a violent act is undertaken.

To the 15 year old that is about being aware. If you don't pay attention and look for danger I agree skills are pretty useless. But if you are aware and train for the most likely attack as well as the traditional one you have a chance, better than none.

I teach my students to evade, disarm, maim and do whatever is necesary. It is the core of every class. Oh and by the way I am the uke as well as the Tori and one of my students is quite good. As such I believe I have as much to learn and from making mistakes -- and mine have a large count -- and feeling the hit as not. So I guess we agree there, maybe.

No I spent my time is the service learning how to do my job which was combat arms. I also learned that my job was to accomplish the mission and do so in a way that maximizes my enemies loss and minimizes ours, which can mean avoiding uneeded conflict, and to leave none behind.

I would point out that many civilizations have had warrior cultures. The thing I admire about the Japanese is not only the art that came from their history, but their sophistication and culture. To combine the sublime and violent.


Posted on: 2005/8/13 14:33
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Re: I realy dint expect this...
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As posted above, I too have heard the story regarding saving a high ranking yakuza, as well as a couple other stories. Regardless, I think that these stories are not to be glorified in and of themselves, but should be transmitted under the proper circumstances. Feel free to ask your sensei for more information, but I do not feel that a public forum is the proper place to relate them.

Posted on: 2005/8/13 16:11
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Gregory Windham
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Re: real experience....
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Quote:

Clovis wrote:
This was my point exactly. Too many people see this art as something completely different than what it is-a form of (generally) unarmed combat.


Just a quick side note:

Budo is about war. War is about Combat. Combat is NEVER unarmed.

Ninpo is about surviving and perservering. That goal - or course, also includes weapons...

What we study is all about force multipliers. To say differently is just naive.

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

PS. It would probably be more accurate to say most classes are generally based around unarmed strategy. The art, however, isn't.

Posted on: 2005/8/13 16:24
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Re: real experience....
Kutaki Postmaster
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Clovis wrote about Yaban:
Quote:
Your only contribution to this thread is to call the original poster an idiot and me a troll. Your response in this matter would seem to indicate that you have no real world experience to share and perhaps are feeling a little insecure about that fact.


Sorry, but this made me laugh. You obviously don't know who you are talking to. Ed's response reflects his many many years of training in the Bujinkan - he's a jugodan shihan who lived in Japan for several years - and he has lots of real world experience as a nightclub bouncer in Australia.

I don't think there is any risk of the Bujinkan losing it's fighting ability anytime soon - there are plenty of people who use their training for professional purposes, and they bring valuable experience to the plate, so that people like me, who don't have to engage in violence can get the benefit, in so far this is possible without having the experience yourself.

However, it seems to me these people who have to engage in serious violence because of work or whatever are rarely impressed by it and also rarely talk about in terms designed to impress others, which is what this thread seems to be about. There are people who read this board, other than Ed, who have worked around the world in the security industry as well as in the military and law inforcement sectors and some of them have been involved in situations where people have died through violence. In my experience, they don't glamorise it.

Posted on: 2005/8/13 16:45
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Alex Meehan,
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Re: real experience....
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There is a reason that those who have been in the "life and death" fights do not glamorize them or usually choose to talk about them. IT IS PAINFUL to do so. I had a friend tell me that "you will NEVER forget ANYONE you have killed". (This from a man who has a Silver Star for an action which credited him with the highest one day kill count for the Vietnam War) I think that is also true of someone you perminently injure. About the only way such an action can be "lived" with is that YOU know you had no choice if you wanted to live, but you still will never forget it and it will always hurt! As has been mentioned here there are legal aspects to talking about such actions in a recorded public forum and it just is not smart to do so. If you want to know about such things get to know those who have experience well, and maybe then they will tell you. It certainly DOES exist within the Bujinkan as our members come from all backgrounds. Fortunately in training we also learn to use our words in an effective way as well as our "awareness" senses. The physical skills still remain the kindergarden level however necessary it is to have them. I consider it a real positive comment that so few here have HAD to use those physical skills. But that is just my opinion.
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2005/8/13 22:14
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Re: real experience....
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I find the assertion that Soke has never been in a fight interesting... I have heard many stories about his youth from him, the original shihan, and a Japanese gentlemen that grew up in Noda with Soke.

Once again though I beleive that the specifics of these multiple encounters would do nothing but glorify these things when Soke himself will tell you they were due to his own immaturity.


Posted on: 2005/8/13 23:02
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Re: I realy dint expect this...
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one time my mother and i relocated to a new town, due to her work. it started great, i got invited to a beach party the first day. we were playing soccer on the beach when i met this really pretty girl and we were getting on great til he ex turned up, and they started argueing. we ended up having a blue, but the worst thing was him and his mates were all members of this local karate club with a wako teacher.
they pretty much beat me up all the time after that, until the handyman from our block stepped in, well turns out this old guy new a thing or two about karate himself, he beat off about 5 of them as i remember. he started teaching me stuff, well sort of. the old bugger had me washing his cars and painting his fence and all sorts, i was spewing! but as it turned out this was top karate training in disguise. long story short i beat them all in a contest a few months later, the best was my last fight when i did this really cool jumping front kick with my arms stretched out, i recon people will be talking about that kick for years,


take care,

Posted on: 2005/8/14 0:03
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darren stewart

Oldschoolcarpentry.com.au
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Re: real experience....
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Quote:

JeffMueller wrote:
I find the assertion that Soke has never been in a fight interesting... I have heard many stories about his youth from him, the original shihan, and a Japanese gentlemen that grew up in Noda with Soke.

Once again though I beleive that the specifics of these multiple encounters would do nothing but glorify these things when Soke himself will tell you they were due to his own immaturity.



Well said Jeff, hehe some people will laugh at me saying that to you eh! :)
Between your bit above and Papa-sans comments I think the reasons not to have this thread is obvious. I think people should re-read both those posts again and get it to sink in all the way.

Also I think I called someone a troll. Yes I think I did, and if you don't like it then read the above two posts again and then read your own. Then go and explain what you said to your instructor.
A good way to ensure you are not mouthing off is to think you are actually "saying" what you are writing, to a junior student in the presence of your instructor. Then if you think you are going to get a slap up the side of your head for your comments - don't write them.

Posted on: 2005/8/14 0:12
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Re: I realy dint expect this...
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Darren - great experience.

Please contact me offline, I wish to discuss the movie rights to your story.

Thanks,

Oh and by the way, "wako instructor?" And what's wrong with Wako?


Posted on: 2005/8/14 3:22
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Re: real experience....
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Quote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Sorry, but this made me laugh. You obviously don't know who you are talking to. Ed's response reflects his many many years of training in the Bujinkan - he's a jugodan shihan who lived in Japan for several years - and he has lots of real world experience as a nightclub bouncer in Australia.



First of all let me say I’m glad I could bring some momentary joy to your life. However; if you read the last paragraph of the post your referring to you will see that yaban’s “many many years of training”, the fact that he lived in Japan, his rank and the fact that he was a bouncer don’t impress me. With all that experience he should have been able muster a better reply than “idiot” and “troll”. SeanAskew certainly did better than that. That kind of name-calling contributes nothing to the discussion. If this is how he responds to question from his own students he go no business being an instructor. Rank doesn’t buy respect.

Quote:

yaban wrote:

Well said Jeff, hehe some people will laugh at me saying that to you eh! :)
Between your bit above and Papa-sans comments I think the reasons not to have this thread is obvious. I think people should re-read both those posts again and get it to sink in all the way.

Also I think I called someone a troll. Yes I think I did, and if you don't like it then read the above two posts again and then read your own. Then go and explain what you said to your instructor.
A good way to ensure you are not mouthing off is to think you are actually "saying" what you are writing, to a junior student in the presence of your instructor. Then if you think you are going to get a slap up the side of your head for your comments - don't write them.



Once again yaban resorts to name calling as his only contribution to this discussion. Others have written very well thought out posts. Although we may not agree on all issues, I commend them for their ability to communicate their ideas in a professional manner. An ability yaban seems to lack. Anything beyond name-calling is just him telling other that they made good points. He makes none of his own. Perhaps this is a clue as to why he was a bouncer?

First let me say I was not the person who wrote the original post looking for exciting fight stories. I am hoping that person’s main objective was to read of people successful use of the techniques in which they train, and to feel more confident in those techniques as a result. My initial post was more a response to the reaction people had to this person’s request.

I still find it strange though how most of those responding to this thread have missed my main point. It is simply this. I believe that the main philosophy of training should be one of preparation and not one of avoidance. We all like to think that the vast majority of Bujinkan members are good and moral human beings. This type of person will tend to avoid conflict already. Sometimes circumstances unfold in which you can’t avoid conflict. It is those circumstances that we need train for. This is were people with real experience (like Sean Askew and Ed Lomax) become invaluable. They are the only ones that can actually take the training beyond the “kindergarten level”. They can instruct students on which techniques are more useful, and what to avoid attempting in a real altercation. The safety of the dojo and the Tori/Uke relationship builds a confidence in the techniques that may or may not be justified. The only ones who might know are the ones who have tried using those techniques in real life conflicts.

My (and other peoples) interest in real world experiences would not be to “glamorize” them or to gain entertainment. It would be as an educational exercise of what worked, what didn’t, and what could have been done differently. These are valuable pieces of information that could make the difference in a life or death situation. If public forums aren’t the place for such discussions perhaps seminars would be a good alternative.




Posted on: 2005/8/14 8:19
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