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Sanshin No kata
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Ok, this is my understanding of the Sanshin forms:

earth- immovable
water-responsive
fire-interceptive
wind-evasive
void...?
Is this a source for all of the elements and a way to use them as situations arise, or is it a whole different thing all together?

I have found many articles pertaining to this, but both ideas are mentioned.....

Please help!
Thanx guys!

Posted on: 2005/9/4 9:21
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Jamie Daiken
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Re: Sanshin No kata
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The basis of Sanshin are five kata. Since you are asking about something as basic as this I assume you aren't training under a Shidoshi?

If you want to understand Sanshin no kata then you train hard in the basic forms of it and then study henka of them with a good teacher.

Posted on: 2005/9/4 10:25
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Re: Sanshin No kata
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The easiest answer is yes and definitly NO.
Like Duncan said, when you study the Sanshin under a qualified
instructor, the instructor will help you to see all kinds of things in the 'Sanshin no kata'.
Now, very old and dated books (maybe people) might have said each kata was an element, but, if you ask a teacher whom is current what Soke said, then you have something maybe. I would not even ask until you have done them one thousand times under the eye of the teacher, first.
In other words as the saying goes, "Shut up and train".
Barry

Posted on: 2005/9/4 11:15
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Can you strike the wind?
Caressed by the wind I talk with it.
Can you throw the earth?
Nourished by the earth, I cultivate it.
Can you grapple with the fire?
Warmed by the fire I feed it.
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Re: Sanshin No kata
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being that each time I ask a question on this forum, I get poked at with fun, teased about how stupid or ridiculous a question is and generally discouraged from continuing my involvment here. I will do just that. My participation in this forum is done.
I cannot beleive how you guys think you are so much better then everyone. Is the entire purpose of this forum not to have contact with people who share the same interest and help each other out? It seems not. What would Soke think if he himself read these pages of discussion.........I think his response to all of you looking down your noses at people just becasue you have more experience in such things would be to tell YOU to shut up and train
Thanx for discouraging a truly passionate person in the bujinkan!

Posted on: 2005/9/4 12:25
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Jamie Daiken
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Re: Sanshin No kata
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Mr. Daiken,
I really wonder about your last post...
Time and time again I have seen university students with perfect grades melt-down when facing deserved criticism. While it would be easier to hope they "work stuff out" on their own, I think engagement is necessary since these are the people that will be flying my jumbo jets and designing my skyscapers

I agree that taking criticism is not so easy but please understand that you were offered honest advice from people with no obligation to do so. Please consider this post, and the ones that followed your original post, to be a gentle, helping hands.

Good luck.

Posted on: 2005/9/4 13:04
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Re: Sanshin No kata
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Jamie; I think that what maybe got to you was the quote,"Shut up and Train". It is an old thought in the Bujinkan that we talk to much and train too little. Another quote is " More smacking and less yacking". I thought you would have heard these before. I guess not. Sorry. It used to be that if the instructor liked you he would train you but would not say too much.
Please do not go away. Just find a good teacher and let them lead the way by their actions.
Again sorry but that is the answer.
Barry

Posted on: 2005/9/4 13:29
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Can you strike the wind?
Caressed by the wind I talk with it.
Can you throw the earth?
Nourished by the earth, I cultivate it.
Can you grapple with the fire?
Warmed by the fire I feed it.
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Re: Sanshin No kata
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Jamie, one of the valuable lessons from life is to not take everything so personal. You asked a question and it really was rather "open-ended" and so hard to give a definitive answer to. Sanshin, in my understanding, is just a way to teach movement, how to deliver force to the point you want it delivered, with the least amount of effort. The normal ones demonstrated are EXAMPLES of this, they are sanshin, but not all of Sanshin! (again in my opinion). To think of them as fire, water, air, etc is only a way to help the learning of the movements and is not the movement. As Duncan said one really needs a good instructor to aid one in this, sorry but to do it any other way would take a long time and the result would not be assured. So instead of taking offense at your answers, look more deeply into them and see what YOU can gain from them. There is some good advice there.
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2005/9/4 13:31
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Re: Sanshin No kata
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Jamie, Dont think of the San Shin in terms of the elements. I asked about that once and was told that Chi, Sui, Hi, et... was just an old Buddhist way of counting...I know this to be true but I do not know for sure if it applies in the case of San Shin, still, it is my understanding that these kata teach about body movement and available weapons and, as Ed Martin mentioned, teach the most efficient way of utilizing these movements in a variety of situations.

Keep Going,
Markk Bush

Posted on: 2005/9/4 15:16
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Re: Sanshin No kata
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Quote:

sweet_lude wrote:
being that each time I ask a question on this forum, I get poked at with fun, teased about how stupid or ridiculous a question is and generally discouraged from continuing my involvment here.


If you are treated that way every time, you should think that the reason can be in yourself.

Quote:

I think his [=Soke's] response to all of you looking down your noses at people just becasue you have more experience in such things would be to tell YOU to shut up and train


Do you know that it's Soke himself who said the phrase? He said it when someone asked him a stupid question at a Taikai.

Quote:

Thanx for discouraging a truly passionate person in the bujinkan!


Even if you are offended by other posters' criticism, they are not your enemies but your Sempais. If you consider yourself a "truly passionate person in the bujinkan," you should shut up and train when someone senior to you tells you to do so. That's all.

Posted on: 2005/9/4 16:35
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Re: Sanshin No kata
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Don't give up, mr Daiken, listen to the Buyu when they say to you to ask your sensei about that question. The basics things on Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu are the most dificult things to understand and is impossible to write you a good answer here. It would be like to learn to swim in the dry.

About your question, I'd like to say my opinion. We, modern and scientific people, want to classify everything. We want to understand the world like a bunch of parts that fits the gaps of a giant puzzle but, as I see, you can't think that way when you're trying to understand the budo. The budo wont talk to you using words. To understand the budo, you must to feel it, to train it, only practicing you'll be able to reach the meanings of budo. When soke said, "shut up and train" I understood, "don't ask me, ask the train". It's preety romantic, I know, but is like I see the training.

Ohashi Shihan talks hard, but he's talking you a good thing: be patient and nice or else you will get nothing from your Buyu knoledge.

Good luck in your life

---------

Gustavo Fraguas - Brazil

Posted on: 2005/9/5 14:28
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