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Kukishin Ryu Kata
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Hey I have a question I hope someone can help me with. I am trying to re organize my note book and I have kinda lost my list of all the Kukishin Kata's Does someone happen to have a list of all the Kata? PLease

Posted on: 2005/10/11 14:31
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Re: Kukishin Ryu Kata
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Now - I am really sorry - but the only real answer to this must be the infamous "ask your teacher". Really.

Posted on: 2005/10/11 15:26
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Re: Kukishin Ryu Kata
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Rodney,
Please go to this page and mid way down you will find a list.. There you will find most of them that I train in.. but there are more forms of the kukishinden - kukishin ryu.. I have not listed on this page yet.. please check back at another time for more..

I hope this helps.. http://www.artofcombat.com/ninrsbo.htm

ralph severe, kamiyama

Posted on: 2005/10/11 16:56
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Re: Kukishin Ryu Kata
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Hi

As much as Ralph does try to help I looked at the link he provided and some of the info is very wrong.

I know it says this si Kamiyama Bojutsu but he did provide the link for osmeone asking for Kukishin Ryu kata.

His Keiko Gata is not Kukishin ryu
The shoden - chuden - okuden is actually all one level where he has split it into 3 and the combined orginal name is Sabaki gata (some say Keiko sabaki Gata)

He lists 2 keiko gata which must be confusing for his students, but the 2nd one is actually the shoden gata, a bit of chuden, and a bit of Okuden, basically a mish mash of this and that. Not sure what the chugi is supposed to be as there is no kata listed as chugi in the Kukishin Ryu kata lists.

I did love this pic though
http://www.artofcombat.com/images/bof ... it%20bpad%20with%20bo.jpg
Enter the kamiyana matrix.

Posted on: 2005/10/11 18:03
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Might it be fair to say, that Kamiyama Bojutsu is Mr. Severe's version of the Kukishin-ryû Bôjutsu which he was taught while he was still member of the Bujinkan Dôjô?

Though, being "disconnected" from the tradition the way Mr. Severe seems to be I must wonder on the use of the Kukishin-ryû name. I don't think he has any license for this....

Posted on: 2005/10/11 18:49
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Re: Kukishin Ryu Kata
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As much as Ralph does try to help I looked at the link he provided and some of the info is very wrong.

****Steve, I’m sorry but you are a little mistaken.
This is the methodology of Bojutsu in which I teach it because I have 94-rokushakubo gata to teach in my Dojo curriculum. Breaking them down is a better method of passing on the information. And may I add these are the Bojutsu Gata of Kukishinden and Kukishin ryu regardless of how they are arranged or in what order. And as I stated there are many missing and will be put on the web when I feel the need. And.. well you are correct.. some of the Gata are not Kukishinden or kukishin ryu.. I don’t believe I stated that this was totally Kukishinden – Kukishin ryu gata or they were in order.. did I?****

****Ari, Yes, these are the Bojutsu Gata from different wonderful Japanese bugeisha and are presented in the manner in which I feel the need to teach them. These will be covered in my 12 DVD set coming in 2006. As for being in the Genbukan, Jinenkan or Bujinkan.. does it really matter?
I feel that horse is beaten to death.. let it die...
The knowledge and skills are there in my Dojo curriculum and students abilities to fight with the Bojutsu of the Kukishinden –Kukishin ryu and that’s what’s important to us. As for using the name kukishinden –kukishin ryu.. well of course I have total confidence that I can use it in any way I feel the need to do so. If that wasn’t enough.. I have on tape that the Soke of the Bujinkan giving me permission to do so in any manner I feel fit to get across my point as well as other personal comments from him. Wouldn’t you like to know what else he said? ****

I feel it is funny when someone actually tried to assist someone with information on this forum and others get twisted about it... LOL.. I feel the young man can dig through the Gata on that web site and find what he is looking for. If not.. maybe he will e-mail me and ask me directly. At lease I’m willing to give a hand.

Anything else?

Ralph Severe, kamiyama

Posted on: 2005/10/12 7:09
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Re: Kukishin Ryu Kata
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Quote:

r.severe wrote:
Please go to this page and mid way down you will find a list.. There you will find most of them that I train in.. but there are more forms of the kukishinden - kukishin ryu..
ralph severe, kamiyama


Hi ralph as you can see from the quote above from your post you suggest he looks at your link (after he asked specifically for kukishn ryu kata).

You even name Kukishinden and Kukishin in your post.

yes you do say there are more kata, which implies that the list is incomplete.

However, if you re-read your post it does quite clearly imply that the list is kukishinden/kukishin ryu.

All i did was note what was and what was not correct. You and I both helped him. I think you just didnt like someone pointing out a few mistakes in your list

Such as ..... the Chugi kata, may that possibly be Jugi. Just a thought and help for you.

Posted on: 2005/10/12 7:56
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Yes, thank you Steve... you are correct if you only view the post for what is written..
Maybe the names are different for a reason.. and maybe then.. just a mistake.. ?

One point is..
I have more than one Japanese Bojutsu teacher.. in the past, present and more or less will in the future.. which teach more than… say one teacher might show.

Asking questions would be a plus.. before trying to find fault.. Take for example..
I learned the sabaki gata from 4 different Japanese teachers..
In which.. funny.. I have changed the gata anyway to make them. .’more complete’.. for what I am looking for..
in my own personal training from fighting with the rokushakubo.

But again, thank you..

ralph severe, kamiyama




Posted on: 2005/10/12 8:57
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Re: Kukishin Ryu Kata
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Quote:

Tenchu877 wrote:
I am trying to re organize my note book and I have kinda lost my list of all the Kukishin Kata's Does someone happen to have a list of all the Kata? PLease


"Lost" your list, eh?

Someone was nice enough to put a list out here for anyone who wants to see it:
http://www.mbdojo.com/ryukata.html

I can't say if it's complete, has mistakes or what not, but I'm sure whoever you're training with can point you in the right direction.

If you're really curious, there's a book at the below website with great photos and excellent translations of the information I think you're looking for.
http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10958


Gassho.

Richard Maloof

Posted on: 2005/10/12 10:47
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Quote:
r.severe wrote:
Maybe the names are different for a reason.. and maybe then.. just a mistake.. ?


And maybe this is why it was asked? For the possible controversy, getting it accross the way it was meant to be?

Quote:
r.severe continued:
I have more than one Japanese Bojutsu teacher.. in the past, present and more or less will in the future.. which teach more than… say one teacher might show.


And they all teach Kukishin(den) Bôjutsu? Or are there other traditions enclosed in those you list on your site? If so, calling it Kukishin(den) might be misleading...

Quote:
r.severe concluded:
I learned the sabaki gata from 4 different Japanese teachers..
In which.. funny.. I have changed the gata anyway to make them. .’more complete’.. for what I am looking for..
in my own personal training from fighting with the rokushakubo.


Again, are all these teachers teaching the Kukishin(den) tradition of Bôjutsu, or some other lineages?

If you have mixed up several lineages in your own fashion (as can be understood from your message), then calling it simply "Kukishin-ryû" is surely misleading. Atleast one should use a branching name - one like Kamiyama-ha Kukishin-ryû Bôjutsu or some such.

Though, from what I understand, use of the "main school's" name requires Menkyo, possibly even Menkyokaiden, from the main school's Sôke. Though, naturally(?), anyone can use any name they want, unless violating a copyright and getting caught in that. What it also might come into is moral (Budô)...

From my point of view - please correct my mistake if applicable - you have separated yourself from the Bujinkan Dôjô Budô Taijutsu lineages, yet still use the connections in naming the "school's" and Waza. As I said, it can be done, but is it morally correct from the Budô point of view?

Posted on: 2005/10/12 15:30
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Ari Julku
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