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Re: Kokyu ho kiri
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Hmm, shows that different teachers focus on things in different order, yes?


Uh No. The problem is that this person is a 7th Dan, not a 2nd dan, or 3rd dan. In fact at 5th Dan he has master rank, yet this person is two ranks over this. In any other martial art at that level he would be expected to know the material and to a high level.

The problem with the Bujinkan is that there is no set standard training curriculum. Which i find strange when others who want to make a point about who is not in the Bujinkan (in their opinion) say "But hes not following the training sylabus".

What happens therefore is that this haphazard way of teaching is used as an escuse for when a so called master instructor does not know the material.

But then I guess at 7th Dan he must have been training all of 5 years.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk

Posted on: 2005/10/30 18:39
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Re: Kokyu ho kiri
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* sniff-sniff *

Can I smell the embers smoldering already?

...better start looking for my asbestos suit!

Posted on: 2005/10/30 19:04
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Ari Julku
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(Bujinkan Budōka since 1985)
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Re: Kokyu ho kiri
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hmm, well, Gary Arthur it seems you have no problem letting everyone know about your dislike for the Bujinkan, from what I have read on some of these forums.

Anyways, your vendetta aside, I think that maybe the problem in this instance is that so and so 7th dan, as an individual, has not taken a personal responsibility to learn the material correctly before accepting rank and starting to teach. hmm.. hmm.. I am almost positive, then, that the person mentioned here is not the first person that has been in this situation. hmm.. hmm...

why, oh why can't I leave less-than-well enough alone?


Posted on: 2005/10/30 19:49
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Re: Kokyu ho kiri
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Gary,

here's some friendly unsolicited advice from your friendly neighbourhood Spada-Man:

i have absolutly nothing against anyone practising To Shin Do. even after seeing the curriculum of the "home study course". even after finding out that a student at the "Dayton Hombu" will be expected to shell out twelve dollars in U.S. currency for one class that lasts all of forty-five minutes. even after etc, etc....i could still get along with you just fine.

but lots of people here on Kutaki have everything against people practising To Shin Do. please excuse the imagery, but having a To Shin Do student log on to Kutaki and start dissing Bujinkan practitioners is the equivalent of having a security guard start dissing a bar full of U.S. Navy Seals....the end result ain't going to be pretty.

so maybe you can quit while you're ahead and not get this thread closed before it's naturally run it's course ( i've made that mistake myself ). if it were up to me you would have complete freedom of expression here on Kutaki. but it ain't up to me. just some friendly advice, mate. nothing personal.

same goes for you, Ari. quit being a smart ass.

cheers,

mark spada

Posted on: 2005/10/30 20:15
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Re: Kokyu ho kiri
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Syd,

dude,you can't leave well enough alone because you're a big softy and you know it.

by the way, your dvd turned out pretty good....even before all the "digital enhancement" done in post-production.




cheers,

mark spada

Posted on: 2005/10/30 20:22
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Re: Kokyu ho kiri
Village Old Timer
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Quote:

Strider wrote:
Syd,

dude,you can't leave well enough alone because you're a big softy and you know it.

by the way, your dvd turned out pretty good....even before all the "digital enhancement" done in post-production.




cheers,

mark spada


man, that must be some 'digital enhancement' cuz that footage sucks!

Posted on: 2005/10/30 20:56
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Re: Kokyu ho kiri
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Gary, there is so much in this art that a person can never learn it all. It can't be done, so one just keeps going and learning more. It may very well be that this "7th dan" has put his time resource to learning some other part of our art, be careful about your criticism. Also it is far more useful to be able to DO a "technique" then to be able to "name" it, at least in my opinion. The only real "test" that can occur is if he is attacked for real which all of us prefer never happens. There also seems to be a strong desire in the Western culture to have a set "curiculum" so that we know what we need to learn. That may work if there is a limited amount to learn, but what if it is truly life-long and even then you won't know it all? I do know in the karate I did before one could learn the entire system within a year, so maybe a curiculum would have made sense there. Here? What I see happens is that with a "set" curiculum the only thing the students spends his/her precious time resouce on is the curiculum and so much else that should be gotten is missed. I suggest that you not use a "lack of curiculum" as a criticism of the Bujinkan.
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2005/10/30 21:41
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Re: Kokyu ho kiri
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hmm, well, Gary Arthur it seems you have no problem letting everyone know about your dislike for the Bujinkan, from what I have read on some of these forums.


Actually I have no problem with the Bujinkan Dojo. Indeed I started out in Bujinkan nearly 20 years ago. I think Hatsumi Sensei has created a great organisation, its just a pity that what he has done has been misinterprested by so many.

We all know that Hatsumi sensei gives out rank way before the student is ready for it. In Japan you give some one a black belt and they kind of understand that its given to spur them on. Unfortunately in the West when a belt is given out the practitioner thinks they are worthy of that grade.

The unfortunate thing is that no sooner have they got one grade that they are cueing up for the next before they have even practiced enough to get the basics.

Now I appreciate Papa Sans comment about the fact that one cannot study all of the Bujinkan material, and with this I quite agree, but can you see what a cop out this can be when it comes to showing what someone really knows.

Its a little like that old phrase, expressed when a technique is cocked up "Its a Henka". No you messed up the technique or you can't do it in the first place. This Henka thing is a cop out. There is a time and a place for Henka, and thats when yopu have mastered the basic form.

Now I appreciate as I said what Papa San said. Sure if the teacher had said to this this 7th Dan "Show me the kata "Iwa Kudaki" from the Kukishinden Ryu I can appreciate that he may not remember because there are so many techniques. I can also appreciate that the reason behind studying these paterns is not to remember them but to internalise them so that one has natural spomtaneios movement.

However this Kyuho Giri is a basic pattern and i would have thought that any person in the Bujinkan by Shodan would know this training method.

Gary Arthur

Posted on: 2005/10/30 23:08
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Re: Kokyu ho kiri
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Why is it that people expect that someone of a certain rank should be able to perform a certain technique?

I have had only two instructors in my Bujinkan training (7 years) and both are very good. (they know who they are) One spent nearly 7 years in Japan and was a direct student of Nagato Sensei and the other (my current) goes to Japan every year.

The above mentioned technique, I had never heard of until it was mentioned here. I was graded to Shodan in 2003, so does this mean that I shouldnt be Shodan.

You can only learn what your instructor teaches you, and as Papa-san stated, it is not the technique but the movement behind them.

Jason McLeod

Posted on: 2005/10/31 9:01
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Re: Kokyu ho kiri
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"However this Kyuho Giri is a basic pattern and i would have thought that any person in the Bujinkan by Shodan would know this training method."

You should also take note Gary of another point I made. The most important use of your valuable time resource is in learning how to DO the movement, not in learning the NAME of the technique. I know there is value in knowing names of techniques, but ONLY in discussing those techniques with other martial artists. Knowing the name of something in no way proves that you know the movement involved. This is especially true as the name is in another language, in this case Japanese. It would be wonderfull if all of us spoke fluent Japanese, but that is not going to happen. Our native language is English, it is what we use to communicate. So with this in mind, what do you claim as expertise to determine what a sho-dan level should know? When I asked Dr. Hatsumi his requirements he was very specific and it did not include this "Kyuho Giri". He did emphasize a "good heart" as one, which probably deals with attitude, but that is a guess on my part. If a person trains with me they get a lot of taijutsu, of doing things in close and concealing what they do. They get a lot of knife work as knives are all over this world as a weapon of choice, and a lot of stick work (bo, hanbo, cane). If they want sword I tell them to see Luke Molitor who really knows that weapon well, much better then I. So would you tell one of my sho-dan students that they shouldn't be sho-dan because they don't know the name of this technique? I would think that to be VERY presumptive.
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2005/10/31 12:39
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