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Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu connection
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I think I had read in the past that Kukishin and Takagi Yoshin Ryu had crossed paths before Takamatsu Soke inherited the lineages.I also noticed that the techniques of Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu were very similar ex. Do Gaeshi Kasumi Dori and so on? Does any one have any information on this and what are the difference's between the Kukishin Taijutsu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu techniques,also are the techniques of Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu taught in the Bujinkan? I know Hatsumi Soke only hold the title for Kukishin Ryu Happo Biken so would it be crossing the line to teach the Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu?

Posted on: 2005/11/9 7:14
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Rodney Bennett
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Re: Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu connection
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According to Paul Richardson's book on the history of the Bujinkan, Ohkuni Kihei Shigenobu was master of both schools around 1688. As for your other questions i have no idea and I am looking forward to the answers.

Jeff Lendzinski

Posted on: 2005/11/9 10:47
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Re: Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu connection
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From what I have been told:

Kukishin inherited Takagi's taijutsu and Takagi inherited the Kukis bojutsu. If I remember correctly, they had a match of some sorts and because of the outcome they exchanged the skills which each one lacked.

This is what I remember of a conversation I had, but I'm sure I left out some of the details.

Posted on: 2005/11/9 14:05
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Mark when i read your post I said to myself I know i have heard this before so i went back to Paul Richardson's book and it says that Takagi Gennoshin Higeshige had a contest agaisnt Ohkuni Kikhei Shigenobu and the Taijutsu of TYR was superior to the Kukishin Ryu and the Kukishin Bo was superior to the TYR. The two master trained together and rearranged the two ryus making the TYR taijutsu based and Kukishin Ryu bojutsu based.

Jeff Lendzinski

Posted on: 2005/11/9 14:58
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Re: Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu connection
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Quote:
Tenchu877 wrote:
I know Hatsumi Soke only hold the title for Kukishin Ryu Happo Biken so would it be crossing the line to teach the Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu?


By "Kukishin-ryû Taijutsu" you mean what? Kukishin-ryû Happôbiken does - AFAIK - include unarmed fighting (you might know Seion, Suiyoku, Suisha etc. from the Dakentaijutsu portion of Kukishin-ryû). These were taught fe. in 1999 as part of the yearly theme of Kukishin-ryû.

But, if you refer to the Kukishin-ryû Taijutsu as it is taught in the Kuki-family's school....

BTW. in my Dan-diploma it reads "Kukishin-ryû Taijutsu" (in the "Hatsumi Masaaki, Sôke of..." section IIRR)

Posted on: 2005/11/9 16:29
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Re: Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu connection
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Yes I know the unarmed dakentaijutsu kata's you named they are from the Shoden no Kata.Yes I am refering to the Kuki's family version on the ryu.They start out with the Omote no Kata which includes the techniques of Takagi Yoshin Ryu such as Do Gaeshi, Kasumi Dori and so on...Im just curious about the realtionship of the two Ryu's...

Posted on: 2005/11/10 8:16
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Re: Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu connection
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Quote:
Tenchu877 wrote:
Im just curious about the realtionship of the two Ryu's...


You mean nowadays or in the past?

The past was already mentioned, unfortunately I have no idea about the present (that being between the current Sôkes). Also, AFAIK, Takamatsu-sensei was a Shihan in the Kukishin-ryû (I recall in his calling card it read 9th Dan [EDIT. or 8th]), and was responsible for their physical teaching at one point last century. He also gave them copies of his documents for their lost ones (more on that here). Hatsumi-sôke's "Sôke diploma" is signed by the Sôke of Kukishin-ryû (IIRC).

Posted on: 2005/11/10 15:25
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Re: Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu connection
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The main reason why the Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu (Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho) is similar in its techniques name/form is due to the following reason:

In the fifth year of Jouwa, the Ryu was transmitted to Izumo Kanja Yoshiteru who then renamed it Kijin Dakentaijutsu. Chosui Ryu 17th Generation Grandmaster Araki Teppei Masataka transmitted the ryu to Okuni Kihei. At one point, Kihei had become an ascetic in Kishu Kumano, but he put his style to the test against Takagi Umanosuke's son Gennoshin. Although Takagi's jujutsu form was clearly superior to Kihei's, Kihei's style of Bojutsu was clearly superior. It was decided at that point that Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu would be passed on, and that Kukishin Ryu's bo, yari, and naginata would be transmitted to the next generation.

Now keep in mind that there are many traditions using the name Kukishin Ryu and you have to be careful as to which one you are referring too as they have some similarities but also contain substantial differences by the way they are transmitted. To make things even more complicated there are several branches of Takagi Yoshin Ryu who teach also similar techniques but are headed by complete different Soke.


Best of luck,

Posted on: 2005/11/10 17:04
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Re: Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu connection
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Thank you very much,that helps out alot.

Posted on: 2005/11/11 11:51
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Rodney Bennett
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Re: Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu connection
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it's in rvd and pr's history of the schools of the bujinkan.

Posted on: 2005/11/30 15:52
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