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Re: Bo vs. Bo
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The real secrets of weapons kata can be explored by using different weapons and then no weapons to do the same Kata. A long time ago someone told me that we put weapons in our hands to learn to move our feet.

Marty

Posted on: 2005/11/23 11:07
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Re: Bo vs. Bo
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This - to me - is the "Ha-phase" of training. Looking at the form from different angles, seeing what makes it what, why it tics the way it tacs....

As said - one needs to have a connection to a Shidôshi-kai member to get things moving the way they are supposed to move. In my B&W opinion anyway

Posted on: 2005/11/23 16:22
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Re: Bo vs. Bo
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Quote:
So with a basic like Ashi-barai as they step forward with their right to sweep your left leg (...)


See, I know what you mean and I´m currently training this way. In the Kenjutsu I learned there were basic exercises were one attacks against a Kamae (knocking off the opponents sword first).

Also there was an exercise for every basic cut (ok nearly every), what to do against them. These were simple evade (while still blocking) and counter-attack.

Such exercises I can´t find for Bojutsu. That´s why I´m asking. Take for example Do Uchi - currently I´m training to counter it with a Hane-Age to the hands. But this is something I thought of. It´s applying the strikes in a way I think appropriate. But I´m a little bit unsure, since there is no single exercise of what to do against a Do Uchi.

But reading all those postings I now assume that they simply do not exist - for what reason so ever.

Posted on: 2005/11/23 17:53
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Re: Bo vs. Bo
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If there would be a basic kata for every single possible block/evasion with every single possible combination of weapons, you would need a densho with an infinite amount of techniques. There is such a thing called "kuden".
Last weekend on a seminar with Pedro Fleitas, he showed again how the basic taijutsu jodan uke doesn't change (much) when you get a weapon in your hands.

It is certainly there...

Take care,

Jan Ramboer

Posted on: 2005/11/23 18:36
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Re: Bo vs. Bo
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'Re: Bo vs. Bo
I think we have to put things into perspective and ask why we would now or in the past need kata of bo against bo.
My understanding of Bo is that on the battlefield bo jutsu was used if the end of you spear was cut off, usually by a sword. One would not go to war armed with a bo, and the chances of two men armed with bos meeting on the battle field would be rare if not never.
Certainly priests carried staffs, but why would priest want to fight each other. Even priests like Benkei had the sense to use halberd type weapons when it came to battle.


Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk'

err thats helpful

In Hatsumi sensei's Bojutsu video i'm sure there are kata bo vs bo, but of course this type of training is limited and of course if you have one available in your area grab a shidoshi.

Meant to ask earlier, Gary you train in Toshindo as per your signature, why do you frequent or belong to an online BUJINKAN community?, surely its going to be 'at odds' with your 'modern' training.


Posted on: 2005/11/23 19:39
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Re: Bo vs. Bo
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"Greyarea",

Please sign your posts with your full name, failure to do so may jeopordize your reputation on this forum, as well as your posting privledges.

As far as your question about a counter for Do Uchi, what kind of response did your instructor give you when you asked him/her? If you want a clear answer from fellow forum members, a clear picture of your background is helpful.

Gassho.

Richard Maloof

Posted on: 2005/11/24 0:17
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Re: Bo vs. Bo
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Quote:

GreyArea wrote:
Well I learned the Basics and some Kata from a teacher. Those were basically the same as in the book (long before it came out). As well as Kihon for sword.

I don´t think that this is too simple, it´s about the basics at all. They are supposed to be simple.

Unfortunately there is no longer any Shidoshi here, so I´m at my own. I have the book as well as lots of videos and other written stuff.

All those sources are showing the same techniques (always a little bit different). But still the 'blocking techniques', like in Kenjutsu, I can hardly find.


There is a progression to learning Bojutsu:

Kamae: Learn/understand the structure of the kamae and be able to change between each Kamae correctly, efficiently and naturally. Maintain the specific intention of the specific kamae

Strikes: If your Kamae are good than a strike is just Kamae in action-Learning to strike with kamae. When striking maintain kamae (with the specific intention)throughout the strike and end in Kamae. Practice this diligently.

Kata: Are now taking the basics and adding rythem, distance, shape, angles, strategy, etc. within a sequence of movement in order to aquire an understanding of the weapon. Each Kata also has a specific intention/feeling behind the movement which is involved in how to execute the Kata/strategy.

Posted on: 2005/11/24 8:32
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Re: Bo vs. Bo
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Quote:
GreyArea pondered:
Take for example Do Uchi - currently I´m training to counter it with a Hane-Age to the hands. But this is something I thought of. It´s applying the strikes in a way I think appropriate. But I´m a little bit unsure, since there is no single exercise of what to do against a Do Uchi.


Yes, what did your teacher say.... But, also, not to be too B&W ... What Kamae is the Tori in? This will affect the way one can move efficiently, so different solutions might (will) rise from this.

A simple answer... get the Bô between your body and the attacker's Bô/weapon How? Well, here it comes... Ask your teacher!

Posted on: 2005/11/24 16:35
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Re: Bo vs. Bo
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"Meant to ask earlier, Gary you train in Toshindo as per your signature, why do you frequent or belong to an online BUJINKAN community?, surely its going to be 'at odds' with your 'modern' training".

Many people view To-Shin Do as an entirely seperate martial art to the Takamatsuden Arts. From my perspective this is not so. In the T0-Shin Do sylabus, we still have Taki Ori, Musha Dori etc and allof the kata.

Now I don't want to sound like an expert on To-Shin Do as i am not, but again from my perspective in the way that an Shu Hayes teaches, some of te time a classical kata is taken and practiced and then modern adaptions are shown how to make them work in the modern world.

I think some people out there kind of think that An Shu Hayes has kind of forgotten his training with Hatsumi Sensei and has just made up a mix of various things. Again from my perspective this is simply not true. Ironically even, I have learnt more about the classical arts of Ninpo from An Shu Hayes in a year than I learnt from 6 years with Tanemura. I now understand what and why I am doing something and the strategy involved rather than just learnig a pattern.

If people took the time to see what An Shu Hayes was doing they would see that actually there is some real good stuff there. I have just viewed his Takagi Yoshin Ryu DVDs and they are the best teaching tapes I have ever seen. An Shu really goes into how to make these kata (13) and the Ura kata really work and how they were done on the actual battlefield.

Now I'm sorry if this is not a short answer, but whether Bujinkan, Genbukan, T0-Shin Do we are all studying the Takamatsuden arts, its just our training philosophies might be different. It does'nt mean we can't all converse as adults with each other. After all we are all after the same thing, mastery of the Takamatsuden Arts.

I therefore subscribe to Kutaki to try to keep up with what is happening in the Ninpo world, and to help people with comments on things like Bo Jutsu although i do not promote myself as an expert.

Now as for bo against bo. Ashi Barai gata is a good start, and then followed by Men Uchi gata. And if one can do men uchi gata one can do Goho. Taki Otoshi is another good kata against the bo, as is harai. especially from a thrust. I guess that its down to interpretation of the technique. I feel what is important is the strategy rather than the technique. For if one can do the strategy, even a bojutsu strategy one can use that strategy with a bo, against a sword, bo, spear, or even use it in a knife or empty hand situation.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk

Posted on: 2005/11/24 16:44
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Re: Bo vs. Bo
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Please, gents... Tôshindô vs. Bujinkan Dôjô has been hashed enough elsewhere, let's keep it out of this thread, shall we?

Posted on: 2005/11/25 2:42
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