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Togakure Ryu Wazas?
Just Passing Through
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Hey Guys-

This is my first forum posting! My question concerns the existence of wazas in the Togakure Ryu Densho. I am aware that in the majority of the ryus which the Bujinkan encompasses (with the exceptions of Gikan, Gyokushin and Kumogakure, three schools of which I have little knowledge) the densho scrolls contain the wazas that are attributed to that school. I currently own two of Shihan Van Donk's updated densho manuals, for Shinden Fudo ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu (Before you jump on this, I'd like to reassure you all that this is not to "self-train" the wazas therein, rather, it is a direct result of my geekiness and my interest in the historical development of the differing Bujinkan ryus from an academic standpoint- although I am a practitioner.) Regardless, when I look at the Togakure Ryu, I cannot find reference to any specific wazas anywhere. My question then is- what types of techniques (aside from the sakkijutsu Godan test) are present in the Togakure Ryu? Is there an orginizational structure to the wazas like the Shoden no Kata/Chuden no Kata...etc. of the Takagi Yoshin Ryu? I am very curious about this and would certainly appreciate any qualified advice that I could get on the subject! Thanks!!

Posted on: 2005/12/3 8:19
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Re: Togakure Ryu Wazas?
Just Passing Through
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Also, as the first reply to my message : p , I'd like to finish my post- my name is Ross Weisman. My apologies for the conspicuous lack of this the first time!!

Posted on: 2005/12/3 8:21
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Re: Togakure Ryu Wazas?
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Quote:

Ryuhyo wrote:
My question then is- what types of techniques (aside from the sakkijutsu Godan test) are present in the Togakure Ryu?


Hi there!

There is a video available called, "Foundation of Togakure Ryu " by none other than Hatsumi-souke! I think that would be the most beneficial to you in seeing the types of techniques. I think it would be quite hard to describe techniques in text only on a message board.

Hope that helps!

Posted on: 2005/12/3 11:26
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Jeremy Griese
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Re: Togakure Ryu Wazas?
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Depending on who you talk to and when they first learnt the art, they may give you conflicting explanations of what is and is not contained or confined to that particular ryu or any ryu for that matter. The Quest videos are and excellent reference source/guide, but training in the basic Kihon will stand you in better stead than worrying about which techniques belongs where and to which ryu. I will add one caveat(caution) though, you need to look at the martial arts background of the Instructor your learning from, as this background will certainly color his interpretation of the basics, and by that logic, the more in depth techniques that incorporate those same basics, perhaps in a slightly more complex and rather subtle way. The purpose of the techniques are not only the development of the physical "self" but it also encourages spiritual refinement of the "self".

"If you were to hold a mans life in your hands, you would need to hold him as if he where a child... The same care needs to be given to both." .Bruin.

Posted on: 2005/12/3 13:39
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Mark R. Guest

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The Art Is Alive, when the practice of living transcends the art..So Live It, Dont Just Practice it..!

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Re: Togakure Ryu Wazas?
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HI

the best place to start looking would be two videos produced by hatsumi sensei

1. Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu
2. Ninja Biken (sword stuff form said school)

The foundation videos are not just Togakure ryu, you will see stuff from Kukishinden, Koto and Gyokko ryu on those 2 videos.

If you have stuff from RVD tghen you should be able to also buy the video/dvd from him

Posted on: 2005/12/3 19:56
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Steve Jones
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Re: Togakure Ryu Wazas?
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Quote:

Ryuhyo wrote:
My question then is- what types of techniques (aside from the sakkijutsu Godan test) are present in the Togakure Ryu?


Sakki is Togakure Ryū? Interesting! That's new to me!
Can people confirm this?

Not that I doubt your words, Ryūhō, but I like to get some second and third and and and opinions on this, before I take it for granted...

Posted on: 2005/12/3 20:49
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Achim "Kennin" Steigert

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"Shodan" means "beginners grade"...
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Re: Togakure Ryu Wazas?
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Hi,
in terms of video reference if you watch the videos in the quest serries on Togakure ryu taijutsu and ninja biken that would be a good start but there is the following

Ukemi Gata (whilst wearing shuko)
Santo Tonko no kata (a number of kata concerned with escape)
Shinobi Gaeshi gata
Ninja Biken

Also the Eda Koppo is said to be used in this Ryuha

Senban shuriken, shuko and shinodake were also said to be part of this ryuha.

Posted on: 2005/12/4 7:46
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Re: Togakure Ryu Wazas?
Just Passing Through
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Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to thank you all for the input so far! I'd like to make a couple of additions/changes and also to respond to some of the posts thus far. Bruin- I appreciate what you said, especially the aspects about development of the spiritual self in conjunction with the physical. I would like to reassure you though, that I do study the Kihon and basics fairly exclusively...my interest at this point in my training in the Togakure Ryu is really just an academic pursuit. diamondjoe- To the best of your knowledge, is that "Foundation of Togakure Ryu" video that you're speaking of the one from Hatsumi Soke's collection of Ryu videos? I believe that this is the video that Kotaro is speaking of...if either or both of you wish to confirm this I would be very grateful! My very question actually arose because of the video descriptions in the Quest video catalog- let me explain: In the caption of all of the Bujinkan Quest Series "Ryu" videos, the description of the content usually will include a sentence about the wazas of the school- the Shinden Fudo Ryu video stated "Watch these Shihan teachers get down and dirty performing 24 traditional wazas" (closely paraphrased). The Koto Ryu tape says, "17 traditional wazas" etc. However the Togakure Ryu video is the only Ryu video which says nothing about wazas- it only briefly cites Sakkijutsu and Shinkengata. So, I was perplexed about the nature of the transmission of techniques in the Togakure Ryu! Are there wazas?? If so, how many, and how are they categorized (Chuden, Okuden...e.g)?? Where are they hiding?? (Hiding is pretty apt since they are from a ninjutsu ryu!). So, just to clarify- I am not looking for real technique descriptions so much as an informational overview. The posts thus far have been very helpful- I will be sure to save up and get that video. Also, Kennin- as far as Sakki being Togakure Ryu- From my current understanding, Sakki is a feeling and sensitivity that can only be developed through diligent practice of material from all of the ryus. I grouped it with Togakure Ryu partially because of the fact that it is listed in the video description, partially because it seems to be emphasized as a historically relevant aspect of ninjutsu, more than the other traditional budo traditions. I agree with you- perhaps we can get someone with a historical background to comment on this! And, as far as doubting me- haha don't worry! A good intellectual conversation is moot without some presence of scholarly doubt : ). Sorry for the long-winded post- I'd greatly appreciate any comments on my (hopefully) somewhat clarified questions. Thanks guys!


- Ross Weisman

Posted on: 2005/12/4 7:47
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- Ross Weisman

"The village that shines in the moonlight leaves differing impressions on the souls of different people"
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Re: Togakure Ryu Wazas?
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Hi,
yes there are named waza in the school , I can't remember exact numbers but somewhere along the lines of
ukemi gata (6)
Santo tonko no gata 12 (e.g kate ude tonso no gata)
Shinobi Gaeshi gata (12? as I said can't remember off top of my head)(e.g. shige gaeshi)
Ninja Biken (17 I think not counting kamae)e.g. Dattou no ken

Posted on: 2005/12/4 8:04
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Re: Togakure Ryu Wazas?
Just Passing Through
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Kennon,
Sakki is from Togakure Ryu. Scroll called Happo Hiken, section Tenmon Jimon. This can be confirmed in Hatsumi sensei's book Tetsuzan. Pages 23& 24. Page 24 has pic of the scroll.

Posted on: 2005/12/5 4:41
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Billy Pierce
Lexington Bujinkan Dojo
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