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Re: Carrying Knives
Active Kutakian
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From Boynton Beach, Florida
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Knives are an extremely handy tool to have around. Not neccessarily for fighting but for cutting boxes open and other little things.

Don't get me wrong knives are great fighting tools but I really don't think people are carrying them for combat purposes. In the clubs for example, people carry it to show off, a large percantage of them would never cut anyone. On an E.P. (executive protection) team you always carry one for emergencies.

Knives have always been around, its nothing new. Swiss army knives were the craze for a while, then the multi tool(leathermans) and now Spyderco's. They aren't just popping up lately, they have been around for a long time its just realizing that they are there.

Hope that helps...if my rambling makes sense...it's the Cuban in me...LOL

Posted on: 2005/12/21 6:22
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Re: Carrying Knives
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I'm going to have to agree with jackel on this one. Knives have always been around, they are just becoming more apparent. Personally I believe this is do to their cost. You can flip through most late night Home Shopping Networks in the US and see adds for buckets of easily concealed folders for 20 bucks. Also knives are easier to ditch or explain in certain instances.

I personally carry a small folder on my keychain for utilitarian purposes as well as safety if needed, but I also often hide a knife on my person.

On a law enforcement note, a friend of mine who works in law enforcement routinely carries several concealed knives on his person. He also trains in the Bujinkan.

Like all weapons, only use it if its not going to be a liability to yourself, physically or morally.

My thougths,
Jim D.

Posted on: 2005/12/21 11:26
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Re: Carrying Knives
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Oh, Dont forget legal liabillity too.:)
Jim

Posted on: 2005/12/21 11:33
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Re: Carrying Knives
Village Old Timer
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2004/12/21 19:52
From Dayton, Ohio
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From a legal liability standpoint, A knife injury is responsible for many more debilitating and "Job Time Lost" injuries than normal blunt trauma from a fight. A small nick of a tendon will take someone out of work for 2 months - or perminantly if he has a good Lawyer. You could be liable to support his family for their loss.

I often carry a knife for convience and utility. I would use it for defense as a last resort. I think a smart ninja would not carry one for self defense.

Marty.

Posted on: 2005/12/21 14:33
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Re: Carrying Knives
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Knives are tools. They have always been around. The only reason they seem to be more prevalent now, is because the media needed one more story that they could hype up to scare people. I have carried a knife ever day for most of my life. I usually carry at least two. People only see one though.

To say that someone trained doesn't need it and someone untrained shouldn't carry one is a little off, in my opinion. An untrained person with a knife in the hand suddenly becomes a much bigger threat to the opponent. That may be the equalizer if the person is attacked by more than one person or the opponent has a weapon. To dismiss the knife is a mistake.

Now, I do think that if someone is going to carry for self defense, they should get some training.

Posted on: 2005/12/21 15:30
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Re: Carrying Knives
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From my limited experience I know that there are quite a few knives or sharply pointed instruments carried on the streets here in the UK. Although that is not to say that the majority of people are carrying, it is the minority that do. The people that tend to carry knives are those that use them to commit a crime i.e. robbery, but of course there are also a few that carry them for self protection.

The question I have about all this is that if one carries a knife as self protection, does it just start an arms war on the street. So if Mr Billy Badguy carries a knife because he wants to rob someone, but then knowing that Mr Victim carries a knife in self defence, as maybe he has had a situation where he has attempted to rob somoone and the victim has pulled a knife, does he not opt for a bigger knife or even a gun?

Here in the UK police officers (certainly in Northamptonshire)do not usually carry firearms. It has been suggested that because UK police do not carry firearms as part of their regular duties, that the criminal also, in most instances feel that they do not have to carry firearms.
And one of the questions is that if we armed all UK police officers, would it make the criminal more violent?

And of course here in the UK there are stringent laws in regard to weapons and tough sentences for breaking those laws.

Now when it comes to practitioners of Ninpo carrying knives, well my personal feeling is that in the old days when most people including the ninja were banned from carrying swords, they just developed very good muto dori. Maybe today we should develop very good muto dori against knives.

I also feel that by one drawing a knife in self defence may make the attacker change their mind. But some of these attackers are more desperate and pulling a knife just ups the anti.

I remember going to a dojo in Leicester when i was stopped by two males and I had a steak knife placed to my stomach. These guys wanted money, and I said "OK" and raised my hands in a surrendering position. I then routed around in my pocket and found a fifty pence piece. Suddenly I knocked the knife aside and performed a ura shuto into the side of my attackers neck. I then ran off down the road and not hearing anyone following me I turned only to see the attackers picking them selves up off the floor. They then just stood there stunned.

I must admit that when this happened I was scared and the only reason I defended myself and ran was two things in my head "Are these guys going to hurt me?" and then just before I struck another thought entered my head "I'm not going to allow this".

On reflection this tactic, although at the time there was no tactic in mind, worked perfectly and certainly no bravado, in fact i amazed myself that i had done what i had done.

Personally if someone pulled a knife on me now I would always act the victim. Give them what they want, make them feel like they are winning, and if you feel like you have no choice suddenly use the ninpo that you have been taught and get the hell out of there.

Ninjutsu should be an art of secrecy. Don't act tough to your attacker by pulling a knife, or even assuming some aggresive looking fighting stance, allow them to believe they have won and then using your secret techniques lead them to the destruction they seek.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk

Posted on: 2005/12/21 18:42
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Re: Carrying Knives
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I have always carried a knife, even as a kid. Its uses are endless...Knife disarms against a skilled and aggressive knifer is not as easy as in the dojo, Even someone who is an expert has a high chance of getting seriously injured having your own knife increases your chances, I think..Alot of recent movies have shown knives and knife fighting, and phillipino martial arts is fairly prolifick and popular right now. Where I am from, most everybody has a knife, a gun, or both...But most do not brandish/display them threateningly usually either. Becomes more like part of the clothing, not like being "Armed"
Ninja didn't become better at muto-dori because of the law, they got better at concealing their own weapons...

Posted on: 2005/12/21 19:25
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Re: Carrying Knives
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Good discussion gentlemen. Here is also something to consider, as already said KNOW your legal liability and understand under what circumstances you could use it for self defense and justify that to the police and in court. I think it is very important that if you carry one you do know how to use it effectively, that doesn't just happen. You may want to get access to a large animal carcass and see what it takes to cut it. If you don't carry one you really need to know what to do when threatened with one and again that doesn't just happen. I've played with a lot of the "hostage" situations and will say that IF they are threatening you from close in and you know what to do, they are yours, and before they can respond. But then that too takes proper training. Knives are generally more dangerous then a gun and can hurt you in so many different ways. A gun can only hurt you if you are in line with that "little black hole" when it goes "bang"!!!
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2005/12/21 23:08
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Re: Carrying Knives
Permanent Village Fixture
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Ed Martin said:-
Quote:
A gun can only hurt you if you are in line with that "little black hole" when it goes "bang"!!!


I'm not entirely sure I agree with this although I do take the point.

Sure, you can be shot by the round coming down the barrel but you can also be prodded, whacked and cut by the weapon as a whole. You've also got the report (bang) as the weapon discharges. You've also got the ejecting case which is hot (I've seen one of these fly across a range and straight down the front of someone's jacket which didn't half give him a shock). I also remember being on a seminar with a high-ranking and highly talented Bujinkan instructor. During one technique, he "gave" me the pistol. Not one to look a gift horse in the mouth, I began to take a lock. Next thing I know, my toes are screaming in pain and I'm completely distracted. He had hit the magazine catch on his training pistol, dumping a full magazine straight onto my toes from several feet up.

There's plenty of stuff in Hatsumi sensei's "Knife and Pistol Fighting" on this IIRC.

Posted on: 2005/12/22 1:11
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"Ultimately, we must forget technique, but forgetting about technique is not the same as never having learned it."
Hideharu Onuma
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Re: Carrying Knives
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2005/5/14 3:17
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I'll echo Papa-san, good discussion here. A law enforcement type (at least I think it was) told me once that all the good knife fighters are in jail. Take that for what it's worth.
I am of the opinion that if you want to see how effective knife against knife is, then take either two wooden training knives or two rubber ones (the rubber is more forgiving)chalk up the edges and have a go at it. It has been my experience that BOTH PARTIES GET CUT IN SOME FORM OR FASHION. This will quickly dispell the myth of the attitude "I know how to fight with a knife".
And since people carrying knives is more prevalent, I would tend to agree that knowing how to deal with an aggressive attacker who is armed with a blade would be invaluable.


~ Rob Acox

Posted on: 2005/12/23 2:16
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