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Re: "Grass is always greener..."
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Quote:

r.severe wrote:

If the Bujinkan doesn’t have a soke or followers of the soke who fight then where does that leave the Bujinkan Dojo in the next generation?

ralph severe, kamiyama


Ralph, i think you will find that it does. Only, they dont have the time to jump on a forum like this and waffle on, as they are too busy defending their lives and "fighting" (Iraq, Afganistan -- ring any bells ???? )

Posted on: 2006/1/24 16:57
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Re: "Grass is always greener..."
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I am kind of leary about joining in this discussion, since it seems doomed to go down the road that so many others have, but, I'm going to anyway.
First off I'd like to say that I agree with some of the arguements from both sides, and that I really don't have much experiance in "real" fights. I've been in a grand total of 2, and one ended very nearly fataly. Needless to say nearly killing someone scared the crap out of my 18yr(at the time) old self.
On the reality of sparing verses fighting, it seems to me that sparring is good for training the reflexes and while getting punched in the head does hurt, gloves and other padding seriously degrades the effect that a real punch has on the body. Thats what makes sparring fun! that's right evil of all evils, I like sparing, its fun, goofing around and kicking the crap out of your buddies. However I realize that this is not a real fight, and that it cannot be compared to a real fight.
when it comes right down to it there are alot of techniques that you cannot do(or perhaps I should say are extreamly difficult) when wearing padding, alot of the koshijustsu that work really well bare handed don't work when you have gloves on. and on top of that it would be grossly irresponsible to actually attempt alot of the techniques durring any kind of fight besides a life and death confrontation. could you imagine doing ganseki(sp)or onikudaki to someone in a "civilized" match?
I think that a balance must befound between realism and safety. If that boundry is pushed to much to one side or the other I think that the art will be lost, either by becoming "sporterized" or the simple lack of students! lets face it if you break someone every time you train a technique pretty soon there wouldn't be any one left...
Once again, just my opinion and most likey I am wrong anyway!

Posted on: 2006/1/24 16:59
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Re: "Grass is always greener..."
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I also Alan, have be reticent to post on this as some of these viewpoints have been debated time and time again. For Ralph, you tend to claim all these "fights", yet you NEVER were even in the military, were you??? How many of these fights were with "students" in a severe sparing situation? How many were created by your attitude pushing people to the point of fighting? A "real" fight is when someone attacks you without provocation with intent to kill or severely injury you. Now if you haven't been there then you are NO expert on that and your opinion is just as good or flawed as anyone else's who has not "been there". I have not. That is why I've closely asked people who have, whose opinion is "expert". I do trust their opinion. If you do as Nighthawk said and ask those who have been in Iraq and Afganistan you would not make the uninformed statement that there is no combat experience in the Bujinkan. We already have had casualties there. Others I know have survived BECAUSE of their training in this art. I agree that sparing for some can be fun, you know that at the most you will feel some pain, but we do that anyway in this art. Put it in the proper category however, and don't consider yourself more expert because you have done sparing, the most import thing is that you have the correct automatic responses when it turns ugly and you DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT FIRST. They are automatic, and you get that by having the right muscle memory gained from accurate training. OK, I've made my position very clear. Each is entitled to their own opinion as well as the results that come from that opinion. Each person must make their own choice about how they approach their training as THEY AND THEY ALONE will get the results of their choice.
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2006/1/25 0:00
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Re: "Grass is always greener..."
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There is little or no green grass in Iraq and Afghanistan.
A trip there doesn't mean you have any experience with combat.
And if you did see action this doesn't make you a fighter or a trainer of fighting.
It makes you a 'winner' and you get to come home after the big ball game.
I can respect that.
Who wouldn't?
ok..
But..
Looking outside the system (ryu) stated looking for greener grass.. is another subject.. right.
....

Alan, it is good you haven’t had to smash a few more people other than 2 in your life so far with fights. It’s a harsh ordeal regardless of the outcome.
In that I mean if you are sparring and someone gets hurt.. and this can be taken many different ways. Hurt can mean just a hurt ego.. but to some a broken arm is just part of the game and it doesn’t matter. Yes there are extremes. The last match we had here at the Dallas Ninjutsu Academy there were almost blood in every match and one arm was broken. But the experiences taken from that.. 7 matches were priceless from the interviews of all the fighters.
More or less I would be trapped in the same trap many do by hiding the fact that they have NO experience with fighting and confess things they have no experience dealing with as.. ‘fighting’. What I mean is.. you are honest and that is what counts when others talk about fighting as if they were experienced.. meaning 20 to 400 fights.
Yes Alan what you said about sparring is true, it’s fun and more or less a great way to gain experience with those attributes you stated in your post.
In my over all experience I have come to realize fighting and sparring is pretty much the same in terms of how it feels.. the big difference is you hit harder and with a great deal more intention with weapons and without. And there is the fact that others might join in which they have many times from my experiences. But over all it is pretty much the same experience if you just drop the fear and ego and get some.
My research into what it feels like or what happens during sparring or fighting has come up with the basic idea of.. it happens and you go on with what has to be done to ‘win’.
I have talked to a lot of people who have been in a knife conflict (I have) and been shot, shot at, smashed with a stick (I have), hit with pipes (I have), struck with whips (I have), etc.. it all comes out the same.. ‘keep going’.
I agree Alan, while looking for the ‘green grass’ you need to find a balance must between realism and safety.

Being honest about your experience is too.

I do agree with your first post Darren.. but human research is more important than the system or style.

ralph severe, kamiyama

Posted on: 2006/1/25 8:30
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Re: "Grass is always greener..."
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"...but human research is more important than the system or style".


....more important for what reason exactly? the potential for getting severely injured and/or killed?

so how many of your "students" make regular trips to the local hospitals, Ralph? are you paying for their medical expenses? the doctors and hospital staff must love you to no end. here they set up a facility for the purpose of treating people who incur injuries when they don't want to....and you come along and fill up those beds with people who actually seek out injuries. and all for the sake of "experience"....

wonderful....really....

why not just get it over with and call it the "Dallas Ninja Fight Club"?

"don't fight. don't be in the fight."

i guess listening to Hatsumi sensei isn't much of a priority where you live.



mark spada

Posted on: 2006/1/25 9:31
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Re: "Grass is always greener..."
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Mark,
This is the last post I will make on this subject.
But I will take the time to answer you.
I’m not sure of your background or experience or even if you have any training in martial arts at all but over the past years.. let me see.. I have been teaching in Dallas since November of 1976 and owned a school since 1985.. teaching for a living I have had almost zero injuries even with the pragmatic training I do.
I believe the last injury was with a guy in the back storeroom playing around with another student and one chipped a tooth with a baton grappling or many would say grab horsing around and this was two months ago.
The last injury was the broken arm in the last match we had with another school to settle some differences. This was two years ago.. no matches of this kind with as many players have taken place since that time.
Mark, I teach FIGHTING SKILLS or KILLING ARTS of Japanese warriorship not artsy or dance stop and go aikido-jutsu-ninja stuff. I do not entice or promote fighting or any type of sport type of fighting in or out of a ring. And I do not pretend to be a flowery type nice living hide behind others fancy business type master either. Pretty simple Mark, I’m a fighter and did my deal for many years and really that’s all behind me. But I can say I have experience and have knowledge of what I’m saying and I don’t try to hide that fact.

But this thread isn’t about that now is it?
It’s about finding truth through looking elsewhere other than the Bujinkan Dojo ryu that is being taught in 2006.
My opinion is you have to explore and research to seek the truth regardless of what person or system you train in if you are pragmatic about what you feel is being honest with your heart.

I also feel Darren has a point that many search out other systems way before they have trained in the ryu to a period where they can understand what it is they are training in the first place.

ralph severe, kamiyama

Posted on: 2006/1/25 14:17
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Re: "Grass is always greener..."
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Thanks guys for your input. My intention was not to cause a fight here, either. Ralph, I know you understand what I was asking and thank you for your alternative views - even if I may or may not totally agree. We all are responsible for our own training, so to you I say "gambatte".

Everybody here has important points.

My purpose was more about WHY people choose to do these things rather than WHAT people choose to do. The "what" is not as relevent as the "why" - which is at the root of each person's warriorship. My post was to show the futile nature of an immature "why", which I have seen throughout my 20+ year MA history and I've seen expressed by others in my few years chatting on Kutaki.

Some of what I said may have seemed like a rant and I apologize if it appeared that way. I meant no offense to anybody and it's ok to disagree. Like I said, even dissenting opinions have their place.

My hope is that those who are reading this thread take the different views into consideration in their own martial path and ask if the choices they make support their Bujinkan training or are they just chasing rainbows in wild ambition.

Peace, happiness and health to all!
Gambatte!

Posted on: 2006/1/25 14:40
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Re: "Grass is always greener..."
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Quote:
r.severe wrote:
It’s about finding truth through looking elsewhere other than the Bujinkan Dojo ryu that is being taught in 2006.


Yes, in kick boxing things are done this way, in karate that way, judo has those methods, kendo these, aikido something else....

So?

I agree, it is good to know about "other styles", but... what we are to train is Bujinkan Dôjô Budô Taijutsu as taught by Hatsumi-sôke and the Shihans. Straying too far will... well... take us away from Bujinkan Dôjô Budô Taijutsu.

Though, if this is what you are loking for, then fine, but then it is no longer Bujinkan Dôjô Budô Taijutsu but something else, right? Like Shihan Brin Morgan noted in Sanmyaku - IIRC - "Honesty is the best policy"....

Posted on: 2006/1/25 15:19
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Re: "Grass is always greener..."
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"There is little or no green grass in Iraq and Afghanistan.
A trip there doesn't mean you have any experience with combat.
And if you did see action this doesn't make you a fighter or a trainer of fighting."

That is an interesting analogy Ralph, first how do you know there is "little or no" green grass there? Have you ever traveled there? How much traveling out of the US have you done? I would be very careful about such statements, I remember landing at Bagdad in the late '70's and being amazed at how much "green" there was. Yes there is a lot of sand in that area of the world, I lived in Saudi Arabia for more than two years, but there is also a lot of green where there is water. I have been there (in all of those middle east countries and emirates) and no that does not give me experience with combat as there was no war at that time, but someone going now very likely will see combat. While seeing action might not make you a "fighter" it certainly will give you a lot better perspective on what a "fighter" needs then someone who has not. I just have a real problem with people claiming expertise when there is no evidence that they have it beyond their own claims, which often are inflated beyond belief. I also have a problem with people attempting to lessen the value of one who has seen combat to make their lack of combat seem less important. I value deeply the experiences shared with me by friends who have seen serious combat and put themselves on the line so the rest of us can have our freedoms. Since you never have Ralph perhaps you should withold any comments on the whole area.
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2006/1/26 2:08
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Re: "Grass is always greener..."
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Hey Ralph,

I know you run a real "Rockem'-Sockem'" dojo and I am interested in knowing a couple of things:

1) How early in your students training, do your students begin sparring

2) How do you see changes in what would be considered "Classical/Traditional Movement" when put in a "fight" scenerio

I hope you come back on the board to answer this. I'm genuinly interested in your experience and obsevations. I have for the first time started to add sparring as a part of my training/study.

Posted on: 2006/1/26 5:10
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