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Cross training
Honorary Villager
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2006/5/12 21:56
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Hello,

I understand that there are 9 schools in the Bujinkan, are any other systems taught in the Bujinkan besides the 9?

In other words are other arts ever incorporated?

I have trained with instructors that incorporate Tai Chi, Bagua, Aikido and other arts in their training, is this common? Or is it more of a man is a creature of habit mentality?

I mean no offense by my questions.



Thank you,

Fred Raines Jr.

Posted on: 2006/5/14 6:56
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Re: Cross training
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You are correct. The Bujinkan "syllabus", for want of a better word, is formed from the 9 Schools (Ryuha).

Although i do know of instructors who throw in other material, but will not grade you in it, just to try to round it all out a little.

I know of a Shidoshi here in Australia who has had some training in Brazillian Ju Jitsu and throws some ground work in for his students, altough he does not promote the BJJ aspects, nor does he grade people in it.

Posted on: 2006/5/14 21:02
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Re: Cross training
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Thats cool, I don't like close minded training. I think we should always try to incorporate other concepts/ideas that we have learned in the past into our current training.

I know that the Bujinkan has tons of info in it and covers just about all aspects of combat. The only thing is having to wait years before you can learn some of theses aspects.
I work as DT instructor for Law enforcement agencies, SO I have to live in the now and not the later.

I guess this is another reason why people cross train, to bring to the Bujinkan techniques from other arts and then make them work with Taijutsu instead of that specific arts movement.

There is a Shidoshi in California who takes Aikido techniques and teaches them with the Bujinkan twist, much better in my opinion! I know another Shidoshi in New York who uses Bagua movement and makes it flow incredibly with Taijutsu.

The Gracie concept is interesting, I know there is an instructor in Florida who teaches the Gracie sysytem with a Bujinkan twist.

I just wanted to know if it was common or just my luck of the draw of people I have had the honor of training with?


Fred Raines Jr.

Posted on: 2006/5/15 0:08
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Re: Cross training
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I believe it was Harada sensei that pointed out to a group of us Shidoshi that the Bujinkan has nine schools, any one of which is easily a lifetime of study. Considering that in the "old days" in Japan, a warrior's total training came from a single one of our nine schools, it seems ridiculous to me that Bujinkan teachers feel that it's a good use of time to borrow yet from OTHER arts in order to teach Bujinkan.

There are Shidoshi who make Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu a "side-offering" in their martial arts schools. From this perspective, it seems very misguided.

If a Shidoshi isn't serious about Soke Hatsumi's schools, they should think about going in another direction.

As usual of course their milage may vary. This is only my opinion.

Posted on: 2006/5/15 2:54
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Re: Cross training
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Quote:

antizen wrote:
I believe it was Harada sensei that pointed out to a group of us Shidoshi that the Bujinkan has nine schools, any one of which is easily a lifetime of study. Considering that in the "old days" in Japan, a warrior's total training came from a single one of our nine schools, it seems ridiculous to me that Bujinkan teachers feel that it's a good use of time to borrow yet from OTHER arts in order to teach Bujinkan.


I understand and completely commend your loyalty and devotion to Bujinkan, but your statements raise a few questions: How many shidoshi know all the techniques in all nine schools? How many shidoshi know more than one school? Is it a plausible expectation to learn all the techniques, even though you may just use a set number of them in an event ouside of the dojo?

Posted on: 2006/5/15 4:21
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Re: Cross training
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The longer I train in the Bujinkan the less I want to learn other arts. I used to want to learn Brazilian Jujutsu to help me on my ground fighting. I learned that Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu not only has ground fighting, but it addresses the problem in a far better way than BJJ.

The Bujinkan has everything. I have taken TaeKwonDo and Judo and a few others in the past, and they don't even compare to the Bujinkan.

Think of it this way: If you really think that you're the greatest martial genius of all time, then go ahead and cross train because you know enough to handle it. Good luck to you. The nine schools of the Bujinkan weren't just 'put together' in the same manner that people now 'cross train.' Odds are, that hundreds of years of refining is going to be better than whatever you come up with. There is a beauty and sophistication to the Bujinkan built in that you could ruin by teaching yourself things that you think might help, that will actually just throw you off track.

I see it like this: In those hundreds of years, and even now, there are TONS of people smarter than me and better than me in every way where fighting is concerned(just in the Bujinkan). Why should I be so arrogant as to think that my ideas supercede theirs?

Posted on: 2006/5/15 6:00
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Re: Cross training
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I think that it really depends on the instructor. But I by no means think you just happened upon the few instructors who cross train.

I want to note too, that cross training does not have to be in the MMA mold that we normally think of (Ie. BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, etc). Many people study iaido, shurikenjutsu, escrima, torinawa jutsu, and a multitude of other arts.

Posted on: 2006/5/15 6:42
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Re: Cross training
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Quote:
YuTaiSheng pondered:
How many shidoshi know more than one school?


All the Kata, all the Waza, all there is in any given school making up Bujinkan Budô Taijutsu? This being Menkyokaiden, right.... Well, "next to none" is my guess

On the "Shihan front" the answer might be different, though...

And this rings true for only one school, let alone all of them (as all of them aren't even taught separately AFAIK).

...but what was the question again, to begin with, what is this about???

Posted on: 2006/5/15 14:37
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Re: Cross training
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Quote:
There are Shidoshi who make Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu a "side-offering" in their martial arts schools. From this perspective, it seems very misguided.


That probably depends on how people are selected for training in BBT. If it is simply a side-line, perhaps that is a bit misguided, but if it is considered the "finishing school" after having learned a more conventional contemporary martial art it makes a good deal of sense and even manages to reiterate the path that Dr. Hatsumi and many of the Shihan took towards their mastery of the Art.

I think there is some significance in the fact that Dr. Hatsumi was already a Godan in Kodokan Judo before even seeing the Kihon Happo from Takamatsu. In some ways the lack of a previous base of successfully learned, test and applied martial arts is probably a contributor to some practitioners unrealistic use and expectations from their training in BBT.

Pat Brady

Posted on: 2006/5/16 0:23
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Re: Cross training
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Personally, I don't see the big deal with cross training in general. But, there are some concerns to consider:

1. Am I pursuing another art or skill set because I don't see it in my Bujinkan training? Have I asked my Bujinkan seniors if this type of thing exists in the Bujinkan?
2. Is my cross training affecting my Bujinkan taijutsu? If so, is it helping or hindering? If not, is it because I just don't see the effect? (point - check with your teacher)
3. Am I training in something or with someone who clearly is not in favor with Soke? (i.e. Jinenkan, Genbukan, etc)

I think if you've honestly asked these questions of yourself (and continue to do so) and all the answers support the cross training (i.e. no reason not to train), then go for it. Sometimes it takes venturing out a bit to see what you've been doing in a new light. Sometimes you might just enjoy the sporting element for entertainment or fitness purposes. Maybe you are just interested in that particular art. Maybe you just want to experience what the "others" are doing (except for point #3 above).

Bottom line is that if the cross training provides some kind of benefit and doesn't hinder your BBT growth or insult Soke's wishes, then go for it. If it does hinder your growth and/or goes against the wishes of Soke, then you need to make a decision to either leave the Bujinkan or leave the cross training.

The same can also be said for instructors, as long as they are clear that what they are showing is not Bujinkan. In addition, I strongly caution instructors to be careful showing other arts they aren't really qualified to teach. You may have a student in class who is far more qualified on the subject and call you on your knowledge or skills on the subject. Personally, I like to draw on the knowledge of others in class who are qualified in other arts. This fosters a healthier approach on the subject and builds more of a community or team environment. This way, it is fun to see how this cross training can blend or affect Bujinkan taijutsu, as long as everyone understands the difference.

Posted on: 2006/5/16 1:13
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