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Re: End of an Era - SKH
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it's sad to see that SKH seems not to believe it really happened...
kinda trauma!

Posted on: 2006/5/21 19:49
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Paolo Rossi
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Re: End of an Era - SKH
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First, allow me to apologize in advance for keeping this thread alive.

I am however compelled to add a comment that I feel is important. It applies not only to the teacher in question but also is relevant to my own personal experience as a student.

It has to do with this concept of "you owe me for what I've done for you". Specifically in regards to the books written and the teacher's influence in spreading the Bujinkan far and wide. This issue of "all I have done" seems to be coming up on other internet forums. Everyone seems to feel that they have to eternally thank this person for writing all those cool books and doing all those cool videos.

Well, think again. Everything that was created was done for profit, and he is still profitting from the sales of these *products* (key word here, "product"). The second we all plopped down cash for his products, the debt was fulfilled.

I have had this experience as well, someone holding me to immaginary debts based on "all I've done for you". The fact is that I paid tuition for everything I recieved.

Debt paid. This is the modern world, not some fuedal era fantasy.

We're not talking about Saints here, we're talking about Martial Arts Merchants.

Posted on: 2006/5/23 4:05
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Re: End of an Era - SKH
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Ok Greg... Fair enough. I understand your point and agree somewhat. However, I feel compelled to play devil's advocate.

By your measure then, since you have paid for the rank Hatsumi-sensei has given you, paid your mat fees for what training you've received, paid for your annual Shidoshikai membership, paid for your books by Hatsumi-sensei, paid for your Bujinkan video tapes/DVD's, paid for your Bujin Patch... are you done being obligated to Hatsumi-sensei by virtue of have paid for the goods/products you received?? If so, what does that mean? Can you disregard whatever guidance he may have given you? Can you teach whatever you want and call it Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu? Can you form your own "art"? And if so, isn't this what Stephen Hayes has done? And wouldn't the above justify his actions... by your standards?

If, on the other hand, those "qualifications" do not un-obligate you... then why should people not feel some measure of gratitude to Steve for being as prolific an author as he was and for spreading the word about the Bujinkan as expediently as he did?

Just curious where the lines are so I can color outside of them.

Posted on: 2006/5/23 11:10
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レスレスリ.羆
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"I believe now there is no school worth its existence except as it's a form of nature study..."

-Frank Lloyd Wright
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SKH Eulogy
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An American shihan recently posted in another forum that he tried to help by explaining Soke's feelings to Steve 17 years ago!!!

Why is this important?

Wrong or right, Soke set Steve up to take a fall bringing down the Shadows of Iga over 17 years ago.

Do you think Steve ever really recovered from this?

I don't and you really don't see Steve following Soke closely following the fall.

Steve announced to the world he was making a trip to Japan while ignoring everything and everybody knowing the sharks swimming around Soke would be waiting.

It was a one way trip death by cop suicide and very public which they usually tend to be.

And the mob gathering around his corpse to butcher and string it up.

VULGAR

Whether you like it or not Steve brought the training out into the open for everybody.

Do you need to like what he did following the fall of the Shadows of Iga?

No. He made a choice.

Perhaps pity is more appropriate.

Thank you Steve for everything.

Sorry things didn't work out.

Posted on: 2006/5/23 13:50
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Re: SKH Eulogy
Village Old Timer
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...

its not.

yes.

...

what?

...Huh?

so he says!

no,

no,

politely yeah i guess.

if you say so.

Marty

Posted on: 2006/5/23 14:47
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Re: End of an Era - SKH
村長 :: Sonchou
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Some things can not be purchased by money, IMHO.

Posted on: 2006/5/23 17:30
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Eva Barbara Bodogan
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Re: SKH Eulogy
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Yes, it's a pity things went the way they went, but wasn't the choise done by Mr. Hayes? We make the choises, we must live with the results...

So, from an outsiders view... pity. Though if I had been part of his organization, and if what I've reqad/heard are mostly correct, then there might be anger, dissappointment, frustration, maybe a feel of being betrayed...

Though, I don't know everything, maybe too little.

All the best to Mr. Hayes and all those in his organization!

Posted on: 2006/5/23 18:18
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Ari Julku
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Re: End of an Era - SKH
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what's done is done.
personally i really don't like to badmouth people; its feels like I am killing a part of myself everytime I do it.

Posted on: 2006/5/23 19:07
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Re: End of an Era - SKH
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Well said, taco monster.

Posted on: 2006/5/24 16:46
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Re: End of an Era - SKH
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Interesting topic, of which the descision is not mine so I can't comment on it.

Hayes brought the style to the USA, deserves credit for it. He runs a tight organization and has more talent than many of us could ever attain.
The fact that there are kyu's on other boards bashing him is both a breech of etiquette and stupid. The fact that I read here he was only a Judan. When he was in was there not only 10 dans? Maybe I am wrong there, but the term he is only a Judan, thats sort of sad.

Also "Some things can not be purchased by money, IMHO" I have heard the same when it came to Hatsumi Sensei being the inheritor to Takamatsu. And a hospital wing.
Not saying that is what I believe but the same is said for many people.

This post is playing devils advocate and I am no one. But I have an opinion about it.

Posted on: 2006/5/26 1:49
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Dave Gibb
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