Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Socialize
 

Recent Topics
Topic Replies Last Post
Travel Safety Tips 0 1/16 1:36
elina30
Using couriers 8 2018/8/22 18:27
Bowlby_18
Wedding gift... can someone help me to translate it? 6 2018/6/30 20:50
Barga18
Aomori-Ken 0 2018/6/19 10:27
hanzo-tou
Certificates 0 2018/5/8 4:34
schistkicker

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



(1) 2 3 4 ... 21 »


How does someone test what they know?
Honorary Villager
Joined:
2005/8/2 5:37
From Costa Mesa, CA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 47
Offline
If I remember correctly, it's said that Takamatsu Sensei would enter competitions and take up jobs that involved his martial arts skills back when he lived in China in order to test what he had learned. I also understand that there isn't a whole lot of "Hey! Let's go compete!" or "It's sparring time, kids!" within the Bujinkan as Budo Taijutsu is based in historical stuff and self-defense.

So, when learning techniques and such, how does a person come to test what they know to make sure they can actually do it against someone with the intent to actually hurt you? I've seen one or two schools that put sparring into the curriculum and I've seen only a little Randori here and there online but what I saw was mainly slow, overly telegraphed to help the Tori, and not committed.

I don't want to come off as a troll or look like I'm starting a flame or anything I'd just like to know what to expect in that regard when I do get to a dojo.

Posted on: 2006/7/12 5:33
_________________
- Joshua L. Christopher -
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: How does someon test what they know?
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/2/4 2:12
From Sacramento, CA (USA)
Group:
村民 :: Villager
村長 :: Admin
議長 :: Mod
Posts: 1024
Offline
If I may...

You are asking an honest question that has been debated time and time again - to which no difinitive conclusions were reached. Each person has their mind made up already, really.

My thoughts are that if peace is the foundation of budo, then why break that peace with voluntarily putting yourself into dangerous situations to test your skills. It would seem that you are sacrificing the purpose for the methods, right?

Yes, the late Takamatsu has been quoted saying he took many challenges and tested his ability. The term "musha shugyo" has been passed around as meaning the period one takes his martial arts outside the dojo and applies it to real life - to gain the necessary experiences to provide perspective and maturity.

But, if you read what Takamatsu wrote later in life, you see a far different personality. He wrote about the importance of happiness and love being the foundation of martial arts. He lived peacefully and quietly, running a tea shop. Even when he passed away, his neighbors had no idea who he truly was.

I don't have the source in front of me, but I remember reading an interview with Soke where he said Takamatsu admitted he had done bad things and cautioned Hatsumi not to live as he lived. I would think this would apply to the violence he voluntarily exposed himself to.

Seriously, unless you have an occupation that requires it, you really should train to foster peace and enjoyment of life. The "test" is in your own life growth and success (i.e. are you at peace with your life?). Even dangerous occupations follow a similar idea. When I was a cop, I worked hard at always de-escalating danger to bring a peaceful conclusion. When I was a soldier, I always sought to complete my mission without violence if at all possible. Protecting life was and is the primary key.

If you "test" your skills with sports, you aren't really "testing" your ability to handle real life and death situations. If you throw yourself into violent situations for the sake of using your martial skills, you are not displaying real budo (IMO). You are not a warrior, you are just a guy who fights.

Trust in your art, your teacher and your training. Train honestly and correctly from a good heart. Then, God forbid, if you suddenly are forced to protect yourself or others, what you've developed inside will come out without your conscious effort. And, it may happen so that you or your loved ones just happen to not be where the danger appears.

However, if you want to just put on the gloves and spar around with friends in good sport, then that's another animal entirely. The benefits to your conditioning and some positives in regards to resistance and such are always beneficial. Just don't mix up apples and oranges.

Posted on: 2006/7/12 5:55
_________________
Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: How does someone test what they know?
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2005/4/28 14:10
From Centerville, Ohio
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 301
Offline
I think that was an excellent reply.
----------------------------

"There are tournaments for ninja....only the ones who don't show up get gold medals."

As far as testing what you know: You test what you know, in a very real sense, every time you do a technique in class. Your uke is your strongest opponent. He knows everything about you. He's seen your movement, he knows your weaknesses, your habits, your strengths, your weight, your power, your kamae, he knows that you grip more with your right than your left. He uses all of this against you as your uke and tries to form an intelligent attack, specialized to beat you. If you can do the kihon against that, I'd say you're on the right track. Forget about some mindless fool out there who wants your money...he's nothing compared to your uke.

I was talking with a training partner yesterday because we both felt that we had somehow gotten worse at the kihon from the year before. We didn't get worse at the kihon at all, we had simply gotten better as training partners and so it takes more to throw us off balance than it did last year. The members of a dojo constantly improve each other. It is an entirely positive relationship. Just keep going, class is the test.

That's just my opinion.

Posted on: 2006/7/12 6:59
_________________
"The goal of opening the mind, as with opening the mouth, is to close it again on something solid."
Love and punches,
Nate Hallum
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: How does someone test what they know?
Honorary Villager
Joined:
2005/8/2 5:37
From Costa Mesa, CA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 47
Offline
Thanks for the replies.

So, then, it's up to your Uke to make sure he isn't going too easy on you? I suppose if he is than it's up to you to say "punch faster" or "don't telegraph so much" or something?

Posted on: 2006/7/12 7:21
_________________
- Joshua L. Christopher -
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: How does someone test what they know?
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/2/4 2:12
From Sacramento, CA (USA)
Group:
村民 :: Villager
村長 :: Admin
議長 :: Mod
Posts: 1024
Offline
Quote:
So, then, it's up to your Uke to make sure he isn't going too easy on you? I suppose if he is than it's up to you to say "punch faster" or "don't telegraph so much" or something?


On a technical training level - yes. Just as it would be appropriate to tell your uke to tone it down if they are too aggressive, too.

But, if you are approaching your training from more of a spacial (kukan) concept, then the speed won't matter as he will be striking into space anyway. If you are reacting to the body (techique), then you have to move when the body moves at the speed/timing of the body movement. Therefore, the uke is in control of how you move.

If it's space (kukan), then you are just shifting where/how you are as the shape of the space changes from the initial movement of the uke all the way through the uke's actions. The uke has to adjust to you constantly to continue, which puts you in control.

See the difference?

Posted on: 2006/7/12 7:37
_________________
Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: How does someone test what they know?
Honorary Villager
Joined:
2005/8/2 5:37
From Costa Mesa, CA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 47
Offline
Yes, I see the difference. Unless Im misunderstanding something, though, I still think the speed matters, though, because the space will get closed differently by different people at different speeds.

Posted on: 2006/7/12 8:38
_________________
- Joshua L. Christopher -
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: How does someone test what they know?
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/2/4 2:12
From Sacramento, CA (USA)
Group:
村民 :: Villager
村長 :: Admin
議長 :: Mod
Posts: 1024
Offline
Quote:
Unless Im misunderstanding something, though, I still think the speed matters, though, because the space will get closed differently by different people at different speeds.


True - but there is a BIG difference between quantity of space and quality of space. This is why you can be safe right inside the space of your uke's position. You just have to "feel" where you need to shift and how you need to alter your posture, position and angle. This requires first practicing slowly so you can "see" it, then faster so you can "feel" it. Don't jump one phase for the other. It's about flow and timing, like changing a moving tire...

This is hard to describe in words and over the forum, but I hope you have a taste of what I'm saying. Hopefully you have a good teacher that can better help you understand.

Anyway, I'm sure people are tired of me hogging this topic, so I'll leave this to others. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss my comments further.

Happy training!

Posted on: 2006/7/12 8:56
_________________
Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: How does someone test what they know?
Honorary Villager
Joined:
2005/8/2 5:37
From Costa Mesa, CA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 47
Offline
Don't assume I'm completely lacking in experience or rushing things. I do have a LITTLE BIT of Taijutsu training and I'm only talking about one aspect of training right now. Of course learning it slowly and such comes first. That's how it works in a lot of martial arts!

I do better understand what you're saying now, though, about quality and quantity of space and feeling things out.

Posted on: 2006/7/12 9:07
_________________
- Joshua L. Christopher -
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: How does someone test what they know?
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2004/12/16 1:39
Group:
Gaijin (Inactive)
Posts: 303
Offline
Joshua -

In the end there's no way to know if your skills will save your life. You can win a fight, survive a fight or survive combat. The next time can and will be nothing like the previous time. Combat exists in ku. It's formless, chaotic and completely without rules. The circumstances vary wildly and are completely unpredictable.

If they *are* predictable, then you shouldn't be there in the first place, unless it's your job.

This reality is why I get so frusterated with LIARS when they start spinning webs about all the fights they've been in and won. Everyone, in the heat of male competition, tends to "buffer" their experience. Those rare few though, in their own blessed ignorance and stupidity, lie their asses off and even after they've been caught lying they continue backing up their lies...

Oops... I seem to have taken off in a tangent. Sorry...

Stick with Soke Hatsumi. Keep training. Be a good person and trust in your own fortune. Above all, don't be an asshole.

Posted on: 2006/7/12 10:32
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Unsubscribed
Re: How does someone test what they know?
Deleted_Unsubscribed
Darren has some wonderful points.

Josh, this question is probably the most frequently asked question I receive from people who want to train. The answer to your question is commitment. If you immerse yourself in the training and combine it with every part of your life (e.g. opening doors by using a counterstrike movement, getting your hips under heavy things you're carrying, etc.) then you will be able to survive, and help others to survive when the time comes.
You can't go swimming in a foot of water. Nor can you swim unless you trust that your movements are going to keep you afloat. They've kept others afloat in the past and in the present, why not you! =)

If you like the Bujinkan and you have a good instructor, stick with it until you pass your shodan test. The sabaki portion of the test should answer your question...very thoroughly. =)


Tom Barton

Posted on: 2006/7/12 11:05
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer



(1) 2 3 4 ... 21 »




[Advanced Search]


Today's Sponsor