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Re: KOGA-RYU NINJUTSU LINEAGE
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The danger with labels and history is that you have to really wonder at what point are these people "ninja" and not just "bushi". Honestly, if you look at what "ninjutsu" was, it really wasn't much different than what was going on around the world (then and now). It's the technologies (aka: "how") that has evolved over time, but the purpose still remains the same.

So, in looking at whether or not something is "ninjutsu" or someone was/is a "ninja", it becomes difficult. Historical records and family lineages can support the claim, but at what point is the label "ninja" or "ninjutsu" actually used? Historically, this could mean the death of entire groups of people, so these things would be kept concealed and passed secretly. Even the neighbors of the late Takamatsu sensei were shocked to learn of his ninjutsu Sokeship in his obituary.

My feeling is that there may very well be ex-ninjutsu lineages out there that may have stopped teaching the "ninja" stuff simply because it was either no longer needed or purely for the protection to the family passing the traditions along. Some traditions may even still teach aspects of "ninjutsu", but don't list it as such.

On several publications, Soke Hatsumi was quoted as saying he doesn't really teach much ninjutsu. His reasoning was that technology has surpassed alot of those teachings (such as using encrypted e-messages vs lemon juice on parchment, and so on) and that much of the specialized training would hurt the world instead of help it. I think this is important.

So, you could feasibly make a case that there are ninja families or arts that have ninjutsu encoded in their teachings, but really I think its important to ask why this is important to you. What purpose does it serve for you to learn "ninjutsu" other than for either LARP, history buff, or other abstract reasons. If you are truly trying to survive or work for organizations where that kind of thing is needed, then the training would be passed in secret - not through a public training hall (or internet forum).

Just trying to understand Soke's budo is enough for me and, honestly, I would even doubt any of those so called "old school ninja" that may be out there could come close to the quality of bujin that Hatsumi Soke not only embodies, but has developed worldwide through his Bujinkan organization. That, to me, is far more magnificent in scope than any "ninja" connection.

What history will say about Hatsumi Soke will be the judge. Ninjutsu and ninja may have changed Japan, but Hatsumi Soke changed the world (in my opinion) - much more than any supposed "ninja Soke" (real or fraud) has done. That's real enough for me to put my faith in.

Posted on: 2006/12/21 6:51
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Re: KOGA-RYU NINJUTSU LINEAGE
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TenChiJin Guy wrote:
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Papa-san wrote:
Thank you Syd for posting that site! It does confirm that there was never any intent to pass on the Ninjutsu and so gives the lie to any claiming to have Koga ryu ninjutsu.


This is a case of using your preconceptions to color what you see (or read).

Anyway...

-DW


More to the point -- it was also quoted in the article that:

"Recently, Fujita, who was the last Ninja in Japan, passed away. As a result, Ninja have disappeared forever from this world."

To put more color around this -- Takamatsu was alive after Fujita died.

But we ignore that comment... right?

-Daniel

Posted on: 2006/12/21 7:13
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Re: KOGA-RYU NINJUTSU LINEAGE
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Well Daniel, here we go again. I said "gives the lie to anyone CLAIMING to teach Koga ryu". Obviously there is always the POSSIBILITY that Koga teachings still exist, but no one with ANY creditibility has come forward with this. I suppose that there is even a possibility that the tooth fairy exists. All those who HAVE made such claims can usually be quickly shown to be frauds ---- Duncan is one, all you have to do is LOOK at what he does to know that, and I could go on listing many others. Where do you put your faith? In something that is continually and consistantly proven to your own satisfaction or in a person's claims? I tend to be very pragmatic and will continue to question the Koga claims until someone from that "group" proves what they can do by showing that they have any real skill. That "showing" must also be done to deserning persons, and that doesn't mean beginnig students. This is what Dr Hatsumi HAS done and CONTINUES to do. You and I Daniel have met and talked and obviously BOTH of us retain our opinion of the other. I really do not again wish to banter words with you and am quite willing to let your life teach you your OWN lessons ---- AS IT WILL ---- and just as my life has taught me. At least we have no disagreement on the value of what Dr. Hatsumi teaches even if we do disagree on HOW to pass those teachings on. I do think you are a fine young man but also one with a lot to learn. I have no intention to respond to you again, if you wish to respond pm me!

Posted on: 2006/12/22 0:30
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Re: KOGA-RYU NINJUTSU LINEAGE
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Papa-san wrote:
Well Daniel, here we go again. I said "gives the lie to anyone CLAIMING to teach Koga ryu". Obviously there is always the POSSIBILITY that Koga teachings still exist, but no one with ANY creditibility has come forward with this.


Hi Ed --

No worries

My posts weren't aimed at you specifically -- I just used your quote to make a larger point. It wasn't my intention to single you out - sorry if you felt that way.



-DW

Posted on: 2006/12/22 2:26
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Re: KOGA-RYU NINJUTSU LINEAGE
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Daniel,

Perhaps I can speak to the quote as taken for Fujita's obituary on my site. I too, was struck by the insistence that Fujita was "the last ninja" in the article, at a time when Takamatsu was clearly his contemporary.

Several things have to be taken into account though. The first of these is that the comments were made by attendees of the funeral, who were members of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai of which Fujita was a Trustee, and thus these men were naturally his supporters. The second is that unlike Takamatsu, Fujita, like Hatsumi Sensei, was a natural self-promoter, and therefore far more famous than Takamatsu ever was.

If you want an impartial and authoritative commentary on the state of ninjutsu when Fujita died in 1966, look no further than the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. In it Watatani mentions Fujita and Takamatsu as the last extant holders of the art.

On a side note, while doing research for my Fujita project, I had the honor to be uke for Murayama Kunio, who has direct lineal connection to Fujita, at a Satto-ryu Kempo seminar. It occured to me to ask Murayama Sensei if he had ever heard of Takamatsu Sensei, to which he immediately replied, no. When I mentioned Hatsumi Sensei, however, he said he remembered such a person from TV, but last heard of him when he left Japan in 1968. This, I think, may also help to explain why Fujita was automatically declared "the last ninja," as Takamatsu was unknown to them.

For anyone who is interested, I will have a much more comprehensive work relating to Fujita's career. published soon.

Thanks,

Posted on: 2006/12/22 11:24
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Re: KOGA-RYU NINJUTSU LINEAGE
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Daniel,

Perhaps I can speak to the quote as taken for Fujita's obituary on my site. I too, was struck by the insistence that Fujita was "the last ninja" in the article, at a time when Takamatsu was clearly his contemporary.

Several things have to be taken into account though. The first of these is that the comments were made by attendees of the funeral, who were members of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai of which Fujita was a Trustee, and thus these men were naturally his supporters. The second is that unlike Takamatsu, Fujita, like Hatsumi Sensei, was a natural self-promoter, and therefore far more famous than Takamatsu ever was.

If you want an impartial and authoritative commentary on the state of ninjutsu when Fujita died in 1966, look no further than the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. In it Watatani mentions Fujita and Takamatsu as the last extant holders of the art.

On a side note, while doing research for my Fujita project, I had the honor to be uke for Murayama Kunio, who has direct lineal connection to Fujita, at a Satto-ryu Kempo seminar. It occured to me to ask Murayama Sensei if he had ever heard of Takamatsu Sensei, to which he immediately replied, no. When I mentioned Hatsumi Sensei, however, he said he remembered such a person from TV, but last heard of him when he left Japan in 1968. This, I think, may also help to explain why Fujita was automatically declared "the last ninja," as Takamatsu was unknown to them.

For anyone who is interested, I will have a much more comprehensive work relating to Fujita's career. published soon.

Thanks,

Posted on: 2006/12/22 11:24
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