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Re: Martial Law on Soapbox
Kutaki Postmaster
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Is it an oxymoron if the action contradicts the statment reffering to it or does the contradiction have to be in the statement alone? Thanks.

~juan Z az ueta

PS. Not being pugnacious, just curious if someone more literate than myself can answer.

Posted on: 2007/12/16 6:08
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Re: Martial Law on Soapbox
Village Old Timer
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BTW, I was not being facetious when I posted about the aforementioned abbreviation.

I like to hear what people have to say, what questions they have about BJK, or Japan, or martial arts or the meaning of these elements of their lives in the contexts in which they find themselves.

On the flip side, does anyone remember Pyroto Mountain, the skill-testing game which allowed successful users to climb the mountain as they attained wizard powers and interact with other members?

Hey, wait, we have that game in meatspace

Posted on: 2007/12/16 12:56
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Re: Martial Law on Soapbox
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Posting is like carpentry...you should always measure twice and cut once. If you do then you build something constructive. If you dont you are left with little more than kindling and we know what kindling is used for.
As budoka we have a responsibility to be examples not just to students but to each other. I am stunned at times by the childish bickering I have seen between people who consider themselves teachers. It flows down hill like a waterfall in to a pool full of students and thats where they learn to swim.

Posted on: 2008/5/25 21:46
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Re: Martial Law on Soapbox
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Quote:

Darren wrote:

I am not saying I plan to do any kind of 'cult-like' censorship. Also, as you say, "Soapbox" is generally less moderated only in the sense that people can talk about whatever they generally want. But, that also doesn't mean people can just say things likely to cause trouble without any sort of control, either.


Unpopular speach always causes problems even if its true. Censoring unpopular speach is tyranny.

I'm not one who is going to start some big thread about the validity of the origins of our arts, but enough does seem sketchy that you can't fault people who might want to discuss it on a Bujinkan forum. Hatsumi himself has had repeated opportunity to let the scrolls be examined to show that they are valid and he turns it down (which is certainly his perogitive), but it adds to the controversy.

Deleting or censoring it because you don't agree with it, or think it is not correct leads to the exact points I think Daniel was trying to make.

If someone posts something that hits a nerve, why not battle back with the facts? In the case of our lineage just prove the poster wrong and show historical evidence that the arts passed down to Takamatsu then to Hatsumi and you shut that person up. If you have no information to show that the lineage is valid, then how do you know what the case is? Are you just operating off of your own beliefs devoid of anything resembling facts?

I'm not taking a stance one way or another on that particular issue, I'm just using it to make my point as you mentioned deleting a post on that subject earlier.

Quote:

I'm not talking about deleting contradictory opinions, or those with 'productively fresh' viewpoints, but rather to clean up the unnecessary rubbish to make those things more appreciated and valuable.


something about the road to Hell and good intentions comes to mind...

Who determines if something is rubbish? At one point the idea that the Earth might rotate around the sun was considered rubbish.

Again unpopular speach should not be censored, it should be challenged with factual information.

Quote:

On the subject of your second note, I don't see a refusal to let a rediculously, obvious baited challenge be posted as any sign of not 'growing up'. Quite the contrary - to not bother getting into quibbling debates that go nowhere shows a level of maturity higher than those seeking such things (in my opinion). From the PM's and posts I've received thus far, I'd say it's also in fitting with the wishes of the Kutaki 'core' family. Those other sites present those opportunities if anybody wishes to engage in those things.


The operative part of this is "in my opinion." Your opinion is restricted to your experiences and knowledge. By saying that someones points are inflamitory and invalid you are assuming you know more than them and pass judgement.

If you censor based upon your own ideas, morality and judgement then it no longer becomes a forum relating to martial arts, it becomes a forum of "what Darren thinks is acceptable."

I'm off to the mountains to land some trout, everyone have a great holiday weekend.

Posted on: 2008/5/26 1:11
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Re: Martial Law on Soapbox
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If anybody has followed my activities as Mod, they would see I have been very liberal in what I allow to be posted. Most threads seem to work themselves out and some good things have found their way in between back and forth bickering.

My goal as Mod is to keep things from being childish bickering, slanderous personal attacks, trolling and other such activity that serves no real productive purpose other than to muddy the kind of place Kutaki has tried to maintain.

Yes, much is my opinion. But, Mods are people and their judgement is from a position of trust - trust of the site owner(s) and fellow Mods.

What is important here is the fact that there are those who seek nothing more than to stir the poop. The drama is the goal, not the resolution. This "noise" is simply not in line with Kutaki and, just as I would ask troublemakers to "take it outside" if in my place of business, the same can be done on this forum. This is not the block, it's a privately owned website.

As far as threads regarding the authenticity of the Bujinkan, these things have been chewed to death on so many forums, in so many threads, that any who post such things here (yes, in my opinion) are not looking for answers - they are just trying to keep the drama going.

However, differing viewpoints, opinions and such I believe are healthy for good discussion. For instance, I actually greatly enjoyed the dialogue regarding fitness training that has been going on recently in the "rest days" thread. Although some bickering has been going on, in the mix are some great ideas (I particularly like Daniel's weblinks he posted).

So, it's ok to be different. As I've said, we've never been trained to be cookie cutter budoka. Our differences make us stronger as an org. However, causing trouble just to cause trouble, insulting someone or groups of people, etc are the kinds of things that prudent and honest moderating is supposed to deal with. At the time I wrote this thread, things were getting quite out of hand - and I wasn't the only one who thought so.

Posted on: 2008/5/26 3:32
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I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Martial Law on Soapbox
Kutaki Postmaster
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Quote:

Boggs wrote:
If you censor based upon your own ideas, morality and judgement then it no longer becomes a forum relating to martial arts, it becomes a forum of "what Darren thinks is acceptable."


This is what happens when forums are moderated by humans. I think the idea that an objective judgment on moderation is a bit unrealistic (how much is too much? not enough? these are all subjective opinions).

Just like running a dojo. Some behavior that I might find unacceptable, some other teachers might think is just fine (and vice versa). Subjective decision making is part of life. Learning to deal with those subjective decisions to our best advantage is a part of training, I think.

Posted on: 2008/5/26 3:37
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Re: Martial Law on Soapbox
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Quote:

Darren wrote:

As far as threads regarding the authenticity of the Bujinkan, these things have been chewed to death on so many forums, in so many threads, that any who post such things here (yes, in my opinion) are not looking for answers - they are just trying to keep the drama going.


I think things like this and sparring keep coming up as people feel the issues have not been resolved to their satisfaction. I personally have never seen anything on this particular issue resolved, which is why I think it will come up over and over and over again.

We are asked to pretty much just believe certain things without any historical evidence, which makes almost anyone wonder what the real story might be.

Some have no problem just taking things at face value and some want to dig and make sure the wool is not being pulled over their eyes. I don't think that is something that should be moderated.

Quote:

So, it's ok to be different. As I've said, we've never been trained to be cookie cutter budoka. Our differences make us stronger as an org. However, causing trouble just to cause trouble, insulting someone or groups of people, etc are the kinds of things that prudent and honest moderating is supposed to deal with. At the time I wrote this thread, things were getting quite out of hand - and I wasn't the only one who thought so.


Outside of gay stripping I am not sure how things have been getting out of hand.

We study martial arts where we practice sticking three foot steel objects through people, poking them in the eyes and crushing their throats.

One would imagine we would all have the mental fortitude to be able to deal with comments on a message board without having to go sit in a corner and cry about it.

Posted on: 2008/5/27 1:32
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Re: Martial Law on Soapbox
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Lance, this thread was started by myself way back on 3/8/07. At that time, there was a huge firestorm regarding "Earth Ninja" (cringe) and other VERY false representations of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. In addition, we had a problem with the same people trolling the same inflammatory threads here and on other forums regarding the history/authenticity of the Bujinkan (not that that alone is a problem, but it was the tone and manner of the OP that was in question).

Basically, things were getting out of hand and I felt I needed to clarify what my role as moderator was.

You can argue your points and, to much degree, I agree with what you are saying. I think we as budoka should be able to handle controversial attitudes and comments. But, as moderator, it is my job to maintain a sense of order; to create an environment that is professional and productive, not just for us old timers, but for the new folks who have no idea what Bujinkan arts are really about.

Just as budoka should be able to handle touchy, controversial, and argumentative topics/attitudes, it is equally important for budoka to have the control and awareness in their own communication. Rudeness is rudeness and shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. Likewise, lack of respect, either outwardly or insinuated, is something not short of insulting. That should not be tolerated, either. Neither situation deserves the attention of the good folks here and, as mod, I will try and deal with these things so they don't have to.

Bottom line? I am entrusted as Mod in this forum to make decisions I feel are best for the Kutaki community as a whole. For those who don't like it, then there are many other forums which may serve them better. To put it another way, the entrance is narrow, but the exit door is wide and swings freely...

I would rather take part in a forum populated by a few quality members than a forum dominated by a mass of immature, disrespectful and insulting nobs who have as much productive contribution as armpit odor.

Posted on: 2008/5/27 3:37
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Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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